THE ACCRESCENT™ PODCAST EPISODE 261

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:00.809)
Well, Dr. Sherr, welcome back to The Accrescent Podcast.

Dr. Scott Sherr (00:04.29)
Thanks for having me back, Leigh Ann. It’s good to see you again.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:06.867)
We had you on, so we’ll make sure we link it in the show notes. Our first conversation on your Tro+ Calm, Tro+ Calm, the Troscriptions products. And I wanted to be able to do a really deep dive on those, which is why we’re having a part two to go now deep into some of your other products centered around the methylene blue. So I’m really excited to kind of open this up. I think methylene blue, especially in the integrative world, is something a lot of people have heard of.

Dr. Scott Sherr (00:26.136)
Sure, yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (00:34.029)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:34.165)
But I do think we have to just start with just in case anyone hasn’t, what is it?

Dr. Scott Sherr (00:39.17)
Sure. That’s a good place to start. Right. So when I first started speaking about methylene blue, it was way back in 2023. I think my first podcasts about it were in 2022. and so at that at that point, very few people had heard of methylene blue. And it only became very popular in in the beginning of 2025 in the popular press. And there was a bit of a a fad kind of feel to it because of how it was being described and

In mass media and things like that. And that yeah, there’s a positive to that on some level because it gave it more visibility. But there’s also a challenge with trying to educate as to what this thing actually is and what it can actually do and what it can’t do, and then the risks and the not risks and things like that. But but the short story is that methylene blue is a compound that was synthesized in a lab back in the 1870s, so 1870, so a long time ago. It wasn’t made for medicine, it was actually made as a textile dye so that it would dye.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:30.22)
Wow.

Dr. Scott Sherr (01:36.569)
Things blue, like blue jeans, for example. So back in the 1870s, if you had blue jeans, they were dyed with methylene blue. But at the time, there’s also very few options when it came to treatment for infection. There was no antibiotics at the time. And, you know, if you got an infection, like there was a risk that you would, a higher risk of, especially compared to now, that you would die. And they were looking for various compounds that could help. And they found that methylene blue was a fantastic antimicrobial. And what’s cool about it was that you could use very high doses of it.

And it wouldn’t harm the human host, but it would kill pathogens. And specifically, they were looking at malaria, because malaria was very much and it still is, but still back then was killing lots of people in Africa and other places that had malaria. And methylene blue was a great antidote to that. You had to use very high doses of methylene blue, but you could cure people from malaria. So in eighteen ninety seven it became the first drug registered with the FDA for malaria, and between eighteen ninety seven and

Around nineteen fifty, it was like the premier antimicrobial. So it was antibacterial, antifungal, antiprotozoal, and also antiviral as well. And so even up until the nineteen seventies or eighties, if you lived in a Soviet block country, your if you had a throat infection when you were a child, your mom would paint the back of your throat with methylene blue to help with the viral infection. So it so yeah, it’s being it’s still used in that way in places. But after nineteen fifty or so, when antibiotics came around.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (02:41.004)
No.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (02:56.439)
my gosh.

Dr. Scott Sherr (03:02.582)
become less favorable to use methylene blue. And there’s a couple different reasons for that. I mean, methylene blue was not always going to work depending on the infection. That’s for sure. It was good for viral infections, good for urinary tract infections, good for fungal and protozoa, but wasn’t as good for all bacterial infections for sure. And so penicillin came around and kind of take its place. And you know, from there on we’ve had now thousands of antibiotics that no longer work because now we’re all resistant to those. But that’s a different story.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (03:19.039)
Mm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (03:27.285)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (03:28.33)
and so after that, you know, methylene blue became more used in well, in swimming in not swimming, in aquatics, in in fish tanks. And so if you’ve people have heard of methylene blue in oftentimes in fish tank cleaner, methylene blue is in fish tank cleaner, it actually cleans the fish, not the tank itself, because it’s an antiseptic. But again, you don’t want to drink methylene blue that comes from a fish tank cleaner because it’s going to be very impure. And that’s one of the challenges with methylene blue for sure, which we can talk about. But

After that, methylene blue was the compound that allowed us to actually make our first antipsychotic drugs because methylene blue increases some of our neurotransmitters like norepinephrine, serotonin, and at higher doses dopamine. It’s also a cellular marker because it actually concentrates in certain parts of your cell, especially a part of your cell called the mitochondria. And that’s where the story gets interesting because methylene blue concentrates in the mitochondria, it has a vast capacity to support mitochondrial function.

And it does this, and this is kind of why we got very interested in it at Troscriptions, because we realized that as a result of this, and all some of the studies that were happening in the early 2000s, that methylene blue was supporting the capacity for a mitochondria that wasn’t working very well to improve their capacity very, very quickly. Now it wasn’t curing the reason for mitochondrial dysfunction, but it was supporting capacity and not only with energy, but also with detoxification. And so there’s very few compounds that both give energy and detoxification capacity at the same time.

Most things are either going to be like a detoxer, like an antioxidant, like vitamin C or something like that, or they’re going to be an energy enhancer like caffeine or nicotine or something, where you know that’s gonna increase energy, but not give you a lot of detoxification power. So methylene blue has this amazing capacity to both help with energy and detox in the mitochondria. And that’s a big deal because almost 94% of US adults have some element of mitochondrial dysfunction. And so at Troscriptions, we basically think of methylene blue having sort of two major roles. The role at lower doses would be.

Somewhere between eight and twenty five milligrams typically is gonna be more mitochondrial support. And that’s that’s important because mitochondrial support means that you have better energy, you have better capacity from a musculoskeletal perspective, you have better, you know, cardiac function, detox, you have better, you know, better cells that are working everywhere, really. And then at the higher doses, about a milligram per kilogram ideal body weight, which is around like anywhere 50 to 100 milligrams of methylene blue, that dosing range is more anti-infective. You can use that for.

Dr. Scott Sherr (05:52.409)
More for infection protocols specifically, and some as usually in synergy with other types of compounds, but oftentimes in oftentimes that way, but sometimes we can also use it as monotherapy, like as a single therapy, like for a urinary tract infection, for example. So that’s a very quick run of the methylene blue history. The main, I guess, other thing I should say is that because it was made in the lab, it’s not made from the ground. So it’s a synthetic material, which some people kind of balk at. They’re like, I don’t want to take anything that’s synthetic, and like, well.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (06:17.77)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Sherr (06:21.516)
You live in a synthetic world, did you know? Like you’re not living, you know, out in the sun all day long. And you know, you’re you’re you’re now living in some sort of box that has poor lighting and processed foods and bad food bad water and bad air. So sometimes we need synthetic things that can help us. Like antibiotics sometimes we need as well. And or if you’re taking insulin if you’re a diabetic, that’s synthetic as well. And and of course not not not everything natural is good for you. Like arsenic is natural, mercury is natural, right? And like and and also you can forage for the wrong mushrooms and die of

liver failure if you’re not careful, which I’ve actually seen, unfortunately. so that’s one of the major things about methylene blue. And then of course, you know, quality inside of that is really important too. So making sure you get good quality methylene blue. I really do care about that a lot too.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (06:54.71)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (07:05.267)
Yeah, gosh, okay. Let’s break this down. Well, I know, and there’s so many directions we can go in. As you know, a lot of my audience, but all of my clients are mainly cancer or complex chronic illness. So we’re talking things mold, Lyme, pots, MS, so many different things, mast cell activation syndrome. And so that’s really the big focus I want to talk about it in relation to is how can this be a supportive supplement when we’re working with some of these things.

Dr. Scott Sherr (07:06.926)
Sorry, that was a lot, I know, yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (07:17.421)
Right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (07:35.083)
and then I also have more specific questions related to kind of cancer and the mitochondria. But as I said, it’s something in all of the integrative oncologists I’ve worked with, it’s almost always something that they’re putting their patients on. So I think it’s worth kind of talking about why is this such an important factor or support system?

Dr. Scott Sherr (07:53.028)
Yeah, I mean, I I appreciate you asking. So in about about three or four years ago now, I mean, Dr. Nasha Winters, who I know you know, she and I had a conversation. So Natha is a naturopath that has her own book on on on an approach to cancer. And and she and I spoke a lot about methylene blue at the time and we were this is early for me, back you know, three or four years ago, talking about how it could be potentially used in specifically in cancer. But you it what it came down to was that you know, almost any chronic disease and almost any chronic illness has a component of mitochondrial dysfunction.

And if you’re talking about pots, you’re talking about cancer, you’re talking about an inflammatory disorder, an autoimmune problem. Like these are all at its base foundationally, there’s an element of mitochondrial dysfunction. Now, why they have mitochondrial dysfunction can be a lot of different reasons. You can have mitochondrial dysfunction from insulin resistance, you can have it from toxin exposure, you can have it from from you can have it from infections, you can have it from medications that you’re taking on a regular basis, you can have it from

Something that I that I like I I euphemistically called the sympathetic spiral of doom, which is basically a chronic sympathetic activation when you’re always in fight or flight all the time. That’s gonna really deplete mitochondrial capacity over time as well. So a lot of and there’s a lot of reasons. And so you always want to think about addressing those reasons and if trying to figure out what those are. But for some people, it could take a long time and some or some others it’s not even possible, right? Where methylene blue comes in, is that no matter what’s

Affecting the capacity to make energy in the mitochondria, methylene blue can support the capacity to make electrons flow easier through this chain of proteins that allow you to make energy. So the first two complexes on the electron transport chain, there’s four total complex one, two, three, and four. What happens when we eat our food, fat and carbohydrates, is that we need to eat these foods because we take the electrons from these foods and we run them through this chain of proteins that make this gradient.

that allow you to make energy. That’s the very short story of how we make energy in the mitochondria. But what can happen if these proteins are not allowing these electrons to go through, the whole thing can get stuck. And the electrons typically get donated to the first two complexes, either complex one or complex two. And guess what is most susceptible to dysfunction related to those external things that I just mentioned that are causing mitochondrial dysfunction, but complex one and complex two. So if you’re if so things that affect complex one function, pesticide exposure.

Dr. Scott Sherr (10:19.059)
medications like statins will do it, mold exposure will do it. there’s also like metformin will do it, will also affect complex one. So long and short of it, in addition, chemotherapeutic drugs are also going to do this as well, right? So you’ll find if if the first two complexes aren’t working very well, the rest of the chain is going to be very deficient in capacity because you’re not flowing electrons through it. So then methylene blue comes in and it can bypass elect and can bring electrons from the

And by so bypassing those first two complexes, bring them further down the chain. So now you have c electrons going to complex three and complex four. So now all of a sudden you’re starting make more energy, right? So the mitochondria start starting to be able to get become more efficient. And then hopefully you can start addressing what those external things are that have caused the issue, right? but but in essence, what I say to my patients, Leigh Ann, is like if you have a chronic issue, there’s a there’s a mitochondrial component to this. Is it the only thing? No, but if you think about it this way, if you’re if you’re not effectively making energy.

Whatever that cell’s supposed to do, it’s not going to do it efficiently. Is it supposed to be an immune cell? It’s not going to protect your immune system well enough. Is it supposed to be a neuron that’s supposed to help you fire signals? It’s not going to work as well. Is it another cell in the brain that’s supposed to make hormones or or make neurotransmitters? It’s not going to work as well, right? So, like it’s all about for what I the way I kind of describe methylene bluet to my patients is to think of it like a bridge. You know, it’s it’s something that can be immediately helpful while you’re working on the longer term.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (11:43.638)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (11:46.223)
plan of of optimizing recovering and healing.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (11:52.459)
Yeah, no, tell me if I’m understanding this correctly, because I feel like methylene blue is affecting both sides of the equation, which makes it really unique. It’s affecting downstream, which is that mitochondrial dysfunction that’s gonna help give us a boost right away. But it also sounds like it might be affecting some of the upstream things like pathogens, inflammation, some of those things. Is that accurate?

Dr. Scott Sherr (12:15.683)
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I I really think of it as the dosing is is the really what matters here, right? So the if you’re looking at more pathogen load, looking more like as an like anti-infective, the higher doses of methylene blue could be very effective in that capacity for sure. and we’re talking about, you know, it’s difficult when you look up look words like inflammation, because inflammation is so it’s a very general term and it can be coming from a lot of different things. But oftentimes I find that there’s a significant component that relates to mitochondrial function. So

Leigh Ann Lindsey (12:23.04)
Okay, okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (12:44.313)
When you optimize mitochondrial function, inflammation typically gets better. And the cool thing about methylene blue, as I mentioned earlier, which you were kind of hitting on too, Leigh Ann, is that it’s a very cool compound because it it’s called redox cycling, R-E-D-O-X is the word, which means that it helps with both energy production and detoxification. So when we make energy in our cells, we make our adenosine triphosphate ATP, that’s our energy currency, which we make about 150 pounds of ATP every single day. So a huge amount of this.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (13:13.334)
my gosh.

Dr. Scott Sherr (13:13.965)
It’s huge amount. Yeah. We don’t it doesn’t stick around for very long. It it’s made and it gets recycled and it’s happening twenty four seven, three sixty-five, taking no days off, you know, that’s for sure. And what we don’t realize, or many people don’t realize, is at least is that making energy is not free. when you make ATP, you’re making water molecules and carbon dioxide. Water water’s cool, carbon dioxide, we breathe off. And then our the plants take it in and they make the oxygen. And it’s the beautiful cycle of life that we all learned in sixth grade.

But we also make, in addition to those, reactive oxygen species or these free radicals. So when those electrons flow through that protein complex chain, they leak out. They don’t always get to where they need to go. And as we get older and they get more lazy, like the electric more electrons leak out. And that causes it so those electrons become unpaired and reactive, called reactive oxygen species. Those are good in small amounts because we need to, because we know that if there’s a lot of them in the system,

knows supposedly the signal to kind of stop all the energy production. But if there’s too much, it can overwhelm the the the antioxidant system, which helps neutralize that reactive oxygen load. And so what’s cool about methylene blue is that it becomes its own antioxidant. So it makes help you make more energy, but it works directly like an antioxidant as well. And also can compensate for low oxygen environments because it’s going to pick up those free electrons and and neutralize them because of the stress that you have at low oxygen environments, but it can also act just like oxygen if needed

And become the final electron acceptor in that chain of proteins. That’s what we need oxygen for, is that is to accept that electron at the end of those proteins and then become water as a result of that. So that’s why we all need to breathe the oxygen that we do. So that’s why methylene blue could be cool for going to altitude or being on an airplane, because it compensates for that low oxygen stress. And it saved my behind many times when I was at very high altitudes. and then also on airplanes.

Like it’s it’s game changing if you’re taking some methylene blue because you don’t feel as wiped out. You know, you you know that feeling that you when you get an airplane and they close the cabin door and all of a sudden you just get tired. That’s because you just went from probably zero feet of seawater, sea level, to instantly eight thousand feet above sea level because they pressurize the cabin to eight thousand feet above sea level so that it’s a lighter, so it’s lighter. but that means you have less oxygen around as well. And so

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:15.714)
Wow.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:21.196)
Mm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:37.366)
Hmm.

Dr. Scott Sherr (15:38.819)
That’s one of the reasons why you feel so tired when the when the cabin door closes. That’s other one other reason why you feel so wiped out when you get to your destination. So, so that’s another reason why methylene can very, very helpful.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:48.683)
Yeah. What I wanna highlight, you already said it, but I want to make sure the audience really gets it is it’s powerful that it’s doing both. It’s supporting energy production and detox. I think there’s a lot of really wonderful supplements and substances out there that tend to kind of support one or the other. And the thing is, to your point, detoxing takes a lot of energy. And we I think we see this a lot in complex chronic illness and cancer is sometimes we really gotta detox the body.

Dr. Scott Sherr (16:10.199)
It does, yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (16:18.018)
But if it is in such a state of depletion, patients can be having really severe reactions. They can’t tolerate the protocols to some extent because there’s just not enough energy to actually do the detox. And so now we get caught in this weird catch twenty-two.

Dr. Scott Sherr (16:29.497)
Yes. Yes. That’s I’m so glad you said that because people don’t realize that well, what is really detox is your liver, right, doing detoxification typically, right? And your liver has a huge amount of mitochondria per cell to create the energy available to do detoxification. So you can do all the binders, all the antioxidants in the world, but if you don’t have enough energy being made.

you are not going to be able to detox effectively. And this is why people get so wiped out with detox protocols, right? So think about like if you’re just giving people antioxidants and binders, but you’re not giving enough like an energy source, they’re going to maybe have less they maybe they’ll bind up some of the toxins, but they still don’t have the mitochondria or the cells that are working very well. So you’re left in sort of this like, yes, less oxidative load, but still still no energy. Right. And so but if you bring energy in, and I actually noticed this a couple of years ago, there was a practitioner that came up to me. She’s like,

Leigh Ann Lindsey (17:01.101)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (17:24.399)
Scott, I I’ve been using your methylene blue before sauna protocols, and it’s like it’s game changing. And it’s because all my patients that are doing sauna protocols used to get wiped out, but now they don’t because they have the methylene blue on board while we’re doing the detox and the supplements and we’re doing the binders and we’re doing the so doing all that stuff too. and most people don’t realize that, you know, sauna is yes, you’re going to sweat in a sauna, but most of your detox is not going to be in your sweat. It’s going to be the mobilization and the vascular dilation and liver detox that you’re getting when you’re under heat stress.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (17:29.408)
Well

Dr. Scott Sherr (17:54.86)
and that could be difficult for people, right? And so having enough energy to detox is a very, very important point, Leigh Ann. And I do talk about this. Having enough energy to have enough capacity for your cells to do what they’re supposed to do is a big deal. Because if you start looking at, you know, giving people detox protocols or in my world, it’s also like giving people a lot of stress mitigation techniques without having enough energetic capacity. Like then you find people are

Leigh Ann Lindsey (18:19.754)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (18:22.711)
not feeling good when you do that because they don’t have enough energetic capacity to maintain a a state that’s not under sympathetic dominance all the time. So that’s that’s another thing I see a lot.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (18:35.402)
Yeah, you what you’re reminding me of, and we’re we probably won’t follow this thread, but what you’re reminding me of is I interviewed Dr. Aimie Apigian, who just wrote the book The Biology of Trauma. And it was fascinating because some of what we got into is how the biology of trauma is very different than the biology of stress, but also how if we on a physiological level have enough capacity, it actually can change it can, it can allow us to something that is stressful not become a trauma.

Dr. Scott Sherr (18:42.831)
Hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (19:05.738)
If we have enough physiological resources. And that really blew my mind. I was like, ooh, we need to bring this into the trauma world because it’s so real. If we are physiologically depleted, it makes it more likely that something in our life does actually become a trauma because we just don’t have the capacity mental or physical to deal with it. Yeah. It was amazing. She’s fantastic.

Dr. Scott Sherr (19:08.611)
Ooh, hell I like that.

Dr. Scott Sherr (19:25.955)
I have to read this book. I’m writing a talk on this topic about energetic capacity in the setting of of of dealing with anxiety, stress and depression, right? Because it’s very difficult. So I’ll I’ll follow it up with you on that thread afterwards. We don’t have to go there, but that’s very cool. Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (19:41.463)
Yeah. Yeah. So I I wanna ask this question directly, even though I feel like in some capacity we’ve already answered it, which is the things we’ve talked about already, is that what makes methylene blue? Because I know there’s other products that support mitochondrial function. There’s other substances that support ATP production. So I think the audience is gonna naturally go, okay, so why methylene blue over some of those other things? And is it this potential we’ve already talked about or is it more than that?

Dr. Scott Sherr (19:57.636)
Yes.

Dr. Scott Sherr (20:09.421)
No, it’s a good question and it’s an important one because they’re not mutually exclusive. And that’s the big thing. So because you want to dive into what’s actually happening in the individual, let’s see what vitamins, what minerals, what antioxidants they need. Like, can they can they be on a cocktail of of mitochondrial support? Should they be on? And the answer is like probably yes. What methylene blue is going to do, it’s be gonna become like an energetic floor to stand on while you’re doing all the rest of the things to start building them up.

And then that energetic floor that methylene blue brings, within about three to five days of being on the dose, you will know it. So the challenge, a lot of the amitochondral support that I use in practice, and I’m sure you do as well, Leigh Ann, is it it takes time. It’s not like you give somebody some B vitamins, some minerals, give them some antioxidant, you know, repletion. That that takes a while for it to see benefit. It takes three or six months. And that’s that’s really what you want to do. And that’s the sustainable way to really optimize people.

But the cool thing about methylene blue is that you bring it in now. Within three to five days of being on the right dose, you will feel it. It’s not something you shouldn’t feel. You should know there’s a difference. It’s not something that should take 30 days on a dose, like, did I feel it? Did I not? No. Within about three to five days, if you’re not having a benefit, then go up on the dose, just a little bit at a time. And titration is the key with methylene blue. You start low and you increase it unless you have more of an acute issue. If it’s more acute, then you might want to start at a higher dose. But in general, lower dose.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (21:24.724)
Okay, huh.

Dr. Scott Sherr (21:35.8)
Increase it over time and then finding the dose that’s right for you. And once you find that dose, everything else gets easier because then you have this energetic floor to stand on. And then the vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and cofactors, like maybe you were not being as compliant before because you didn’t have enough energy, you didn’t have enough motivation. All of a sudden, now you do have it, right? Because it’s like now you have enough energy to be able to like take that walk around the block, change your diet, you know, get your supplements in some supplement pill packs or something like that, right?

Leigh Ann Lindsey (21:53.175)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (22:03.853)
I find it’s and that’s why I called it a bridge earlier, where in the beginning, sometimes I’m using methylene blue daily in patients to get them through some of these challenging components of of their recovery healing optimization. But over time, the goal is to peel it off, to wean it down and not be on it every day, and then only use it as needed when you have a hard day ongoing, or like you have you’ve had poor sleep, you use it. If you’re gonna be traveling, you use it. If you

Leigh Ann Lindsey (22:10.391)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (22:22.124)
Hm, okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (22:32.655)
have people that are sick around you in the house, you can use it. And so you use it more as a kind of like as a needed, as needed versus all the time. And sometimes that’s the case. Sometimes you need it for even a couple of months or longer in the beginning. And then over time the goal is to peel it off. And then if you’re gonna have an additional stress, then bring it back on.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (22:50.11)
Mm-hmm. Talk to me really quick about why we titrate you start low and you go up. versus I kind of would think it would be the opposite. You start high and then you go down. It sounds like it’s a little bit of a hill, a bell curve, like low, high, low.

Dr. Scott Sherr (23:01.495)
It’s yeah, it’s more of a bell curve. yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that’s a good question. So the reason that for that is that you don’t know what the dose is going to be for most people. Some people are super sensitive to methylene blue, and some people are not as sensitive to it. And the sensitivities really are when the energetic capacity and efficiency increases. How is the physiology? How’s your physiology going to respond? Some people will be will be fine with it as you increase that they’re like no issues, but other people.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (23:11.787)
Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (23:29.815)
might get some headaches, they might get some detox symptoms. That’s the thing. So like if you start off going up too high too quickly, I find that detox symptoms can be sometimes kind of difficult for people to manage. Whereas if you start off at low dose and increase it over time, it’s usually pretty well tolerated. I usually see like s side effects that I’ll see for people are usually headache if they’re not if they’re going too quickly or if they’re not well hydrating at the same time. Hydration’s really important just in general, but I find hydration with methylene bluet can be a very big

lever like if if you’re having headaches hydration typically works. I also find that it doesn’t matter how much you weigh. Some people are 300 pounds, some people are 120 pounds, but no matter the weight, it’s very it’s irrit it’s really not it’s very independent of weight what the methylene blue dose is going to be for an individual when it comes to mitochondrial support. When it comes to anti-infective support, like the deeper like not the deeper excuse me, the like the higher levels of methylene blue, that’s when I’m more

ideal body weight based when I’m thinking about that. But but but in essence, the goal is to slowly ramp them up so that they well they tolerate it well. Then they find the dose that works for them. They stay on that dose. And then as they’re feeling better overall, the goal is to wean them slowly off. And and then that that’s kind of the the the realm of of the bell curve as you mentioned. So that that’s how I typically do it.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (24:42.901)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (24:48.416)
Okay. Now talking about methylene blue with pathogens, you talked about okay, if you feel maybe a UTI coming on, maybe if you feel a cold coming on or someone in the home is sick, you can up the dose. But I also wanted to ask about this in relation to things like mold, candida, parasites. Is it doing a similar thing with those? Can we use it in that way as sort of a way to create an inhospitable environment for those things to thrive?

Dr. Scott Sherr (25:16.887)
Yeah, so I’m I’m using a lot of methylene blue in combination for all of the protocols you just mentioned for Lyme, for mold, for for parasitic infections. it’s not usually the the not usually a monotherapy, right? It’s usually something you can use in addition, except for urinary tract infections. UTIs, because methylene blue, one of the beautiful side effects of methylene blue is benign. It’s gonna cause blue urine. And so methylene blue concentrates in the urine as it’s

being excreted. And as a result of that, there’s a higher concentration of methylene blue. So it’s a great monotherapy under good surveillance and somebody that’s very compliant that can go to the hospital things are, or at least go to the doctor if they’re not feeling well, if it’s not getting better. But using about two milligrams per kilogram of oral methylene blue for about three to five days as monotherapy can can eradicate or cure our a urinary tract infection.

And we also use it at lower doses as a and as a treatment for people, patients with chronic urinary tract infections as well, like dosing about eight to twelve milligrams a day, something like that. and that typically does a great job of preventing the urinary tract infection from coming back. but in essence, the way I think of methylene blue as an antimicrobial is that for the most part, it doesn’t work. And I mentioned this earlier, it doesn’t work like a nuclear bomb to the gut. It’s not like taking amoxicillin or cipro or

Leigh Ann Lindsey (26:19.213)
Wow.

Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (26:40.979)
Keflex or whatever you’re gonna get, like those are typically gonna eradicate all of your gut micro microbiota, right? Or a lot of it. Where methylene blue comes in, it’s more, it’s more targeted in general. It doesn’t seem to have the same effect at these higher doses to cause like all of your commensals to go away. It’ll typically, if you have high doses over long periods of time, it will decrease your commensal organisms, like the ones that are supposed to be there. But in general, it doesn’t have that same effect as if you were taking a an antibiotic, for example. So

Leigh Ann Lindsey (26:46.38)
Right.

Dr. Scott Sherr (27:10.689)
I often use it in combination or sometimes what we’ll do is give us give people like lower doses of methylene blue first and then as that giving them mitochondrial support. And as we’re giving them mitochondrial support, then eventually once they’re supported there we’ll then we’ll go to a higher dosing protocol in combination with natural antimicrobials, binders, detoxifiers, sauna, like d do the whole thing together.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (27:32.81)
Yeah, yeah. Okay. I love it because y there’s so many there’s so many things people are being put on. And like I said, I just what I what’s fascinating me about this is that it’s supporting both ends of the conversation. It’s giving the cells energy to do the detox, but it’s also helping upstream with some of the reasons why the mitochondrial function’s not optimal in the first place, which is amazing.

Dr. Scott Sherr (27:55.086)
Right. One thing I should mention is that if somebody has a chronic infection, for example, you don’t want to start them off. So for infection in general, it’s around a one a milligram to two milligrams per kilogram ideal body weight for a period of time. It can be it can be a couple weeks, it could be longer than that, depending on the situation. But you don’t want to start there with patients that have had chronic issues because if you do, they may not tolerate it secondary to mitochondrial dysfunction. And so for chronic mitochondrial issues related to chronic infection, you slowly ramp them up. And that’s why

You’re supporting mitochondria first before you get to the antimicrobial dosing. And I find that’s much better tolerated than just starting them on a higher dose of methylene blue.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (28:30.87)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now I’m gonna hit you with a hard, potentially controversial question. We know that cancer cells also have mitochondria. So something that is boosting mitochondrial function, why is it not boosting mitochondrial function in the cancer cells?

Dr. Scott Sherr (28:37.079)
Okay, go for it. I love yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (28:51.021)
It’s a good question. And I have had this question before. At this point, methylene blueze been around a long, long time, Leigh Ann. And there’s been about 5,000 human studies since, I don’t know, 1897 or when they started studying this thing. And there really have been no there’s no evidence that we have seen that it has any increased risk of making cancer cells grow. I think it’s because, as you know,

Leigh Ann Lindsey (28:54.552)
Okay, good.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (29:04.523)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (29:18.807)
Mitochondria in cancer cells is very they work very differently than in in in regular cells. They’re typically not using glucose as their main well, they’re they can be using glucose as a main fuel, but they’re typically not making ATP in the same way or in the same amount. They’re usually going through the fermentation processes and things like that. There’s been some question as to whether methylene blue could potentially help at risk cells become less less potentially going into cancer cells because it can optimize mitochondrial function that can help.

reverse some of the aspects that would cause a a cell to go into a more of a cancerous type of phase. But I I just haven’t seen it and I don’t I don’t think that there’s really a huge a huge risk. But I can’t say for sure, you know, a hundred percent that’s but at this point I’ve been I’ve been using it in cancer patients for a long time as a mitochondrial support and I’ve only seen it to be beneficial.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (30:10.39)
Right. I mean, ever I every integrative oncologist I know, every integrated practitioner I know who works with cancer patients is prescribing methylene blue. So I know it’s because they know it’s found been found to be safe. But just for the audience, I think it’s worth bringing in that question.

Dr. Scott Sherr (30:23.779)
Right.

Yeah, I mean, it’s a good question for a lot of things we use in cancer too, not just methylene blue, because we also know that cancer cells might be better at using antioxidants than regular cells, for example. They might be better at, you know, some kinds of like using other things that we’re using on a regular basis. Like, are you supposed to this this is always the back and forth in cancer world, right? It’s it’s it’s the combination of eradicating something versus supporting something. Because if you support somebody’s immune system to eradicate cancer, that’s great. And that’s kind of what you want to do on a regular basis.

But you already have an active stage four cancer, are you supporting somebody’s immune system in that case or are you eradicating the cancer using more oxidative therapies? And so that’s interesting to me, right? Because if you’re going to be giving somebody more oxidative therapies that may want to cause more of an oxidative load to affect cancer cells, maybe you don’t want to use methylene blue right away at lower doses because that is supporting mitochondrial function, where you may want to wait until that oxidative stress has been.

That’s been used and then over then maybe later start the methylene blue as a as a kind of a recover supportive modality, right? And so I I go back and forth with this a lot because you can use methylene blue as an oxidative load. You can use it as a high dose to create more oxy more stress, just like you do like a chemotherapy or IV vitamin C or mistletoe or some of the other things we’re using, artemisian in in in in in the integrative world. So you can use methylene blue that way. You can actually combine it with.

Red light photodynamic therapy because methylene blue is photosensitizing. So it actually creates more oxidative load if you use red light in somebody that has methylene blue on board. And they’re using this intratumorally in some places around the world. So I think that’s super cool. It’s it’s theoretically a good question to ask is well, should you be using low doses of methylene blue in those patients at the same time? And the answer is I would probably stop it, at least in the beginning, like while you’re doing the oxidative focus. And then from there, when your recovery

Dr. Scott Sherr (32:22.029)
mode focused, that’s when I would use the low doses, probably.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:25.354)
So you would stop it completely or do a high dose of it? Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (32:30.041)
Well, I think it depends. Like I I don’t use a lot of high dose methylene blue in practice because I just don’t have a lot of experience with it. and I don’t do that with cancer patients in general. But I think if if it really would depend on the patient, but I think if it was somebody that a significant tumor load, for example, I may end up not giving them methylene blue for a period of time while they were doing more oxidative therapies, maybe a week or two just to let those things do their thing and then from there get them back on it from like a recovery mode perspective.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:54.456)
Got it.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:58.196)
Okay, let’s get into this just for a second. Is that because it might it doing it so for example, let’s say chemotherapy, superoxidative stress, that’s part of what breaks down the tumors. You’re saying we might actually want to pause methylene blue while that’s happening. Is it because the methylene blue could actually almost like mitigate some of the effects of the chemo? Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (33:00.142)
Yeah, sure.

Dr. Scott Sherr (33:05.155)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Dr. Scott Sherr (33:18.051)
That’s the that would be my concern. Yeah, is that you’d you’d have not yes, mitigating the concern and yes, we I get that would be my concern overall, yes. I haven’t completely formulated this yet, but it’s it that’s really what was probably my theoretical concern is that you’re mitigating the stress that you’re causing. Now, if you know you’re gonna be under a lot of oxidative load, and it’s gonna cause a lot of problems because it’s it’s very, you know, very very strong chemotherapy or something like that, then maybe it’s a good idea to get it on board.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (33:29.41)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (33:47.748)
But my sense of it is let let the oxidative load happen and then bring in the recovery strategy, right? It’s the same thing I think of like for exercise. in some people, like I I if they have pretty well optimized mitochondria, like you don’t want to potentially give them a lot of methylene blue because you want them to have the oxidative load of being under under more hormetic stress from exercise. And then you can use it three to four hours after exercise. But in other people that are more stressed and have more mitochondrial dysfunction.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (33:53.794)
Got it.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:10.872)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Sherr (34:15.971)
then I would potentially be using low doses of methylene blue to help them energetically have more capacity when they’re exercising as well. So there’s a little bit of a balance there. Like just as an as an additional example, endurance athletes. I’ve used methylene blue and endurance athletes and I’ve seen significant benefit. And I think this has a lot to do with energetic capacity. So giving more ability to make energy under lots of stress, but also mitigating the oxidative load of being under endurance for long periods of time. I had a guy

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:24.524)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (34:45.315)
That did the Leadville 100 miler here in Colorado, where I live. And he shaved off three hours of his time using, yeah, using 32 milligrams of methylene blue every four hours. So I think it was both the energy and the detox that was helping him there, because that’s not a normal kind of mitochondrial stress for anybody. And so there’s there’s so there’s reasons to use methylene blue pre-workout for sure, but also making sure that you’re also understanding like what your goals are for the workout.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:51.0)
Holy cow.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:56.286)
Whoa, okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (35:14.593)
And and but what the your your strategies are overall.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (35:17.238)
Yeah. Well, and I think this concept of when you’re doing something like IV vitamin C, chemotherapy, mistletoe, I think there is an established conversation around it’s actually causing a bit of damage and we want to let that damage happen, then we might want to go in and then support the cleanup of the damage after we’ve allowed it to happen, which is sort of a weird concept sometimes for us to grasp.

Dr. Scott Sherr (35:33.646)
Yes.

Dr. Scott Sherr (35:42.232)
Right. And that’s exactly what’s important here to understand. And then there’s other other types of ways that we approach cancer now, which are completely immunological, which are to support the immune system to be able to recognize the cancer and then kill it. And in those cases, I methylene blue at low dose is a fantastic idea because again, it’s supporting the immune system function. And then as you know, it’s the terrain that matters. It’s the foundational aspects of your biology. And this is why we give people antioxidants that have cancer, because if they’re deficient, they need them. And and we have to realize that.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (36:08.962)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (36:11.265)
it it’s not a zero sum game. It’s it’s very nuanced here in how we approach it. And so I use a lot of methylene blue in cancer. Absolutely. But and I use it regularly in people almost all the time. But I think if they if they’re under significant oxidative load, I do try to hold off at least for like at least three to five days until that load has been given. And then we’re more in the recovery phase. And I I even do this in my world of hyperbaric oxygen therapy that I’ve been involved with for a long time. I I’m very careful in people that are getting chemotherapy or

Leigh Ann Lindsey (36:31.051)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (36:40.119)
A lot of radiation because you don’t want to make those things work better on some level, which means that or have more oxidative load than they’re already going to give people. And hyperbaric therapy can do the same thing. And so you have to be aware of that too. So it’s a matter of just understanding what the inputs are and and knowing when and when not to, you know, add additional things.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (36:43.692)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (36:58.016)
Yeah. Yeah. So last question on this and then I promise I’ll move on. So someone, you know, for example, I think I’m thinking of a patient who does chemo every other week for six weeks. Is this the kind of thing that you would want them to just stop methylene blue for that whole period? Or is it the kind of thing like you do your dose of chemo and then a week later, that week in between, you’re gonna take some methylene blue to kind of recover?

Dr. Scott Sherr (37:01.453)
Yeah. No, it’s all good. It’s a good two good questions, yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (37:25.091)
Yeah, that’s what I would do. I would be more every I mean, depending on the chemo, depending on the situation, I think after about three to five days you go back on it, right? Usually you want to give the oxidative load about that long to do its work. But then after that, it’s it’s usually done, usually within the first three days. And then after that, it’s see what that’s what happens with the body, right? We know that it takes about three days to recover from an oxidative load. that’s at least in the beginning. And that’s actually Dom D’Agostino published a couple of papers on this and and Don D’Agostino, who

Leigh Ann Lindsey (37:41.281)
Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (37:55.128)
was an author on the paper as well. It’s about three days from like a significant oxidative load for you to recover if you have enough antioxidant capacity, if you do. And so that’s where methylene bluet can be helpful and that really kind of helping support that those pathways of of recovery and and and and and balancing out that oxidative load after about three days.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (38:02.792)
Leigh Ann Lindsey (38:13.526)
Yeah, I just think that’s really important to touch on because we we work with patients who many of them will do a low dose chemo option, but some of them are doing traditional chemotherapy and it’s a really hard decision for them to make because they do understand how much it breaks the body down. And but sometimes if it’s if it’s appropriate, it’s appropriate. But to be able to understand that even if you’re doing some of those really heavy hitter things, chemo radiation, there’s lots of ways to rebuild the system in between.

Dr. Scott Sherr (38:42.297)
Yes, the the in between is the most of the time, right? And so it’s helpful for me to have this conversation with you that that that specializes in this because I’ve been thinking a lot recently about the practitioners in our ecosystem at Troscriptions because I’ve been they’ve been asking me for a cancer synergy protocol for a while. And I’ve been very clear that methane boot does not treat cancer, but it’s a it’s a synergistic tool. But the nuances here are important and I think that the dosing is important and understanding that higher doses are very compelling, but I don’t know a lot of places that are using.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (38:57.416)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (39:10.147)
high doses right now, at least in the United States. And this is the other, maybe one of the few ways that it might be reasonable to think about using IV methylene blue as well. Yeah. Because they are so they’re using it, you know, it’s cool looking into vein, getting blue stuff in it. So people like that. But I I don’t think that from a biohacker performance long low dosing perspective, it makes a lot of sense because methylene blue is so highly bioavailable that most of it’s getting in the system anyway.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (39:18.796)
was just gonna ask this, like is anyone doing IV methylene blue?

Dr. Scott Sherr (39:40.064)
That being said, IV is compelling when you think about maybe an acute infection, acute trauma, because you’re going to get it much faster in the body. And so for example, if you had an acute viral infection, acute urinary tract infection, you could get IV. It’s probably going to be faster acting that way, but it’s not absolutely necessary. But in cancer, they are using an IV in other places around the world and it’s very high levels very quickly. And that’s when you can shine a red light.

a laser on an area that has a tumor or that has a you know soft tissue tumor or a soft or sorry a solid tumor. And from there you can get direct effect. And then I even see have even seen people doing IV lasers, putting lasers directly into tumors and using IV methylene blue as photosensitizer there. So it’s it’s pretty interesting. I mean I can’t say this is greater I can’t there’s no evidence here yet. So just be aware that those are listening, this is all being the very investigational. But I do think that there would be

Leigh Ann Lindsey (40:24.748)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (40:38.625)
likely a role of IV methylene blue for these higher dose protocols when you’re looking at cancer eradication you know in in synergy with other types of therapies and practices and stuff.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (40:48.256)
Yeah, yeah. that’s so fascinating. Okay. I know we only have a few minutes left, so I’m gonna try and squeeze in a couple of things. So introduce us to some of Trouscriptions, because I wanna say you have three products with methylene blue in them. Okay.

Dr. Scott Sherr (40:59.885)
Right. We do. Yeah. So we so Troscriptions has two pure methylene blue products, one called just blue, which is a lower strength, and another one the higher strength called Tro plus Blue. that the lower strength is sixteen milligrams, and the higher strength is fifty. I think we talked about it last time, but our products are developed in something called a buckle troche, which is a dissolvable lozenge that’s scored. You can take a quarter, half, or full. Typically a lozenge would be dissolved in the mouth, but our methylene blue containing ones, at least these two especially.

recommend swallowing because methylene blue is very, very much very, very blue. And so if you dissolve them in mouth, it’s going to be blue for a while. There’s ways to mitigate that and but for the most part, not necessarily to dissolve and let it dissolve in the mouth. You can just swallow them typically better on an empty stomach. And then we have a third product called Blue Cannatine, which is a combination of methylene blue, caffeine, nicotine, and CBD. So this particular product is kind of it’s it’s

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:36.824)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (41:56.152)
Methane blue itself doesn’t feel like a stimulant. It should it should feel like your energy is up. It should feel like your focus is better, your mood is better, inflammation, pain, like all those things can improve, but it shouldn’t feel like you’re on a stimulant, where Blue Cannatine was created to have that sort of stimulant feeling where you’d be focused for three to five hours and have great pre productivity, great verbal fluency, just be able to get into that flow state much easier without a come down or crash. That one, even though it’s blue.

Is better dissolved in the mouth because nicotine and caffeine are pretty fast acting, nicotine especially. So you start feeling within about three to five minutes, maybe up to 10 minutes, but it doesn’t take long before you start feeling the effects of the cognitive capacity go up. And it’s not subtle when you find the right dose. The the average dose is about a half of a troche. So that particular product I use more as needed for patients, unless they have a significant attention deficit issues and they’re using it instead of other things that might be more challenging for them to take regularly, although pharmaceuticals

can be helpful in these worlds, like the Adderall and the Vyvanse and things like that are not well tolerated long term for most people. and I’m not saying get out, stop your drugs, talk to your doctor about it, but I there are practitioners that I’m working with that are trying to wean people off and and use our products instead, but only do that with a practitioner. Don’t do that on your own, that kind of thing. So I use a my workhorse is our Tro Plus Blue, which is our 50 milligram strength, because a quarter of that is 12 and a half milligrams. And that quarter is a fantastic

Leigh Ann Lindsey (43:00.716)
Yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (43:23.757)
mitochondrial support dose for the majority of people that I see and that my colleagues see. Sometimes it needs to be a little bit lower if you’re super sensitive to everything. So you got the just blue for that. And then sometimes it needs a little bit higher so you can kind of go up. And so what’s cool about the Troplus Blue is you also have a a 15 troche pack of it. So instead of a four pack, which is most of our products, we have a 15 troche pack, which is great. So practitioners love that. And I guess I should also mention that our company is a practitioner only company so that you can’t just go ahead and purchase it online. But we have a great practitioner map.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (43:33.048)
Got it.

Dr. Scott Sherr (43:53.486)
available. So if you’re looking to work with a practitioner, looking get them all right, get some help with some of the the these products, they can we have lots of people that could potentially help.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (44:01.93)
Yeah, it’s amazing. I mean, we you’re making me realize we could have had a whole conversation about here on methylene blue for, you know, ADHD and some of these different things. what I’ll squeeze in really quickly is I do want to ask about, because as you know, we talked about, I am having a lot of clients take the tro plus calm and it’s been amazing. Can these two be symbiotic, the methylene blue and the troplus calm?

Dr. Scott Sherr (44:20.633)
Yes, yeah.

Dr. Scott Sherr (44:25.319)
absolutely. I use them in synergy all the time. troplus calm is one of the best ways to help calm somebody’s nervous system down. And it’s great because it doesn’t cause a lot of sedation. It just causes the anxiousness to kind of relax enough that people feel like they’re themselves again. And the methylene blue in combination is great because that now you have this methylene blue that’s giving you an energetic support while you’re calming down the nervous system. And you mentioned

You need a lot of energy to detox. So you need a lot of energy to not have anxiety too, to not feel stressed all the time. To have enough energy will make everything easier for you so that you can decrease your nervous system tone without either crashing or getting reactive anxiety that you’re not being able to function the way you used to. Right. When you’re chronically stressed all the time, you’re depleting your energetic capacity in the mitochondria to make energy effectively. And as a result of that, you’re depleted. And so if you’re

starting to take off that stress, but you don’t have energetic floor to stand on, then you’re not gonna feel very good along that way. And this is people feel wasted and tired and but I use a lot of Troplus common combination with the methylene blue for that reason.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (45:34.666)
Yeah, okay. It’s that’s amazing. I’m so excited. And you have so many great resources for us practitioners to kind of look at protocols and different things like that. So well, this was amazing. We could go on and on and on, but I know we’ve got to land this plane. So thank you so much for coming back on, Dr. Scott Dr. Sherr.

Dr. Scott Sherr (45:47.469)
No, yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah.

my pleasure. Yeah. I I go by Dr. Scott too. So if if if people are interested, they can learn more at our our website. It’s at Troscriptions.com. And if you’re a practitioner, you can sign up for a practitioner account with us. And you can get all the protocols. And we have webinars, interviews, lectures. We have lots of different for you to to l to listen and to learn from and about, I guess. And then you can check us out on the Instagram socials at Troscriptions. You check me out. I’m also at Dr. Scott Sherr. My name D R S C O T T S H E R R.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (46:20.694)
Yeah, thank you so much.

Dr. Scott Sherr (46:23.418)
Thanks for having me.