THE ACCRESCENT™ PODCAST EPISODE 218

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:01.25)
Well, Dr. Faero, welcome to the Accrescent Podcast.

Torkil Færø (00:04.476)
Thank you, Leigh Ann. I actually had to look up the name Accrescent. wasn’t familiar with the word, so I understand it’s about growing.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:10.356)
Yeah. Yes, ever growing. It’s funny because I’m really considering rebranding the podcast specifically because it’s just such a hard name to say, to remember, to spell. So it’s not great for SEO. I love the meaning behind it. Yeah, I love the meaning behind it so much.

Torkil Færø (00:14.489)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (00:25.808)
Yeah, yeah, but maybe it’s a good thing, maybe.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (00:31.19)
Well, I actually, I have so many questions I want to get through. And I’m going to be reading your introduction at the start in the intro before. I actually, if you’re okay, I would love to just get straight into heart rate variability and some of these different things. And so I do think the best place to start is for someone who is maybe totally new to this conversation, what is heart rate variability? How is this a different measurement from just heart rate?

Torkil Færø (01:01.008)
Yeah, heart rate variability is the variation between heartbeats. where I, even I as a doctor used to think that the best heartbeat, that must be a very regular steady heartbeat like a clock. But it turns out that is not the entire truth. So it’s a good thing to have a variation between heartbeats. So it’s not the exact same time between one heartbeat to another. And the cause of the variation

is that when you breathe in, the heart rate goes up a little bit to take advantage of the extra oxygen in the lungs. And then when the heart rate, when you breathe out and there is less oxygen in the lungs, then the heart rate goes down. This happens if you are in the parasympathetic restful state. So this is how you can identify whether you are in this state where recovery happens.

or if you are in the stressful state, and that is the phase where the heart beats like a metronome, like a clock. so regardless of you breathing in or out, it keeps beating quite steady. So it’s like this ancient system that is hundreds of millions of years old, the foundation of our nervous system, interprets the situation as dangerous. So we need to use all available forces.

that we don’t even know if this organism is going to survive the next moment. So it’s at that level that this system works. what is the good thing about this is that we have wearables that can track these differences in heart rate and then understand whether you are in the recovery state or in the stressful state and to which degree. And of course, you can measure it 24 seven. So it gets really good.

you know, insight into what goes on in your system, whether you are under too much stress or whether you are not recovering enough. And that seems to be a problem for so many people, almost all of us, I would say. I don’t think there are many, at least, you know, young working people who would not be in too much stress and you would be able to see it then from the heart rate.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (03:22.254)
Yeah, so as far as I understand it, the heart rate variability is much, much more nuanced than just heart rate. And variability goes down when we are under stress, when we are perceiving a danger or a threat, when we’re not recovering well.

Torkil Færø (03:42.438)
That’s right. So I often say it’s like looking at your heart rate with a magnifying glass. So it’s so much more sensitive. So it’s like looking in a telescope instead of rather looking at the stars, right? You can see more. And the surprise to many people is that what stresses our system physiologically is not necessarily just mental stress. There’s so many surprising sources to the stress on your body that

If you were not looking for it, you wouldn’t even think that this was a factor for your stress.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (04:18.496)
It’s a much more personalized way to understand what at this time is stressing your body too much for your body kind of outside of your capacity, which we’ll get into more of the nuance of that. So what is the range for heart rate variability? And is there kind of a standard range we want to be in? What does that look like?

Torkil Færø (04:42.199)
In general, the higher, the better. there is a, you know, there’s a kind of an average that if you’re like me, for example, you’re 56 years old, that may be 30, for example. And if you have a lower number than that, chances are that you are under too much stress and that your system, you know, physiologically speaking is, you know, under too much stress.

And if it’s higher than that, the higher, the better. But there’s like a 50 % genetic component in this. So what the variables usually do is that they spend the first maybe three weeks just calibrating to your system and then finding out what is stressed for you. So you shouldn’t really compare your heart rate variability to others. But the lower

the number is, you know, for example, if you have 15 milliseconds, you know, maybe a lot of stress people could have that. That is a, the chances are that you are under too much stress.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (05:52.227)
So the 30s kind of that general and then anything up from there. Yeah.

Torkil Færø (05:55.613)
Yeah, the average, the average I would say. And it would be higher if you’re young. It’s quite a like a hockey stick pattern to it. So it starts very high when you’re 20 and then goes quite steep down until you’re 40, somewhere around that. And then it flattens out and stays, it goes very, very slowly down with the years, which is why it’s a sign of your

Leigh Ann Lindsey (06:18.293)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (06:22.34)
resilience and your ability to recover. So this is why the sports, even athletes who could make millions of dollars and lots of fame and all the things they want, cannot stay in their game after they’re 40. Their body is not really forgiving to the stress and the training from the exercise.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (06:42.754)
Yeah, and it sounds like there’s two ways to look at and use HRV. One is maybe your average over time, maybe your baseline, your average baseline. And that might be something that kind of tells you in general where you at in your life, but then you can also look at it acutely to understand, for example, this meal or this food ingredient really impacted my HRV. That might be something I want to consider doing less of.

Torkil Færø (07:11.14)
Yes, exactly. this is why you can see on your stress levels, like my favorite is the Garmin watch. And then I would have the hard jet variability overnight, so I can see the pattern over time. But I can also in any given moment, like just now, just take my watch and see that my stress level is 60 on the scale from zero, I was 54, from zero to 100.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (07:37.826)
Thank

Torkil Færø (07:39.869)
That would be mainly because I had a meal an hour ago. Maybe my body didn’t like it too much. And not just by looking at it and concentrating. It goes down to 40 just by breathing and being, being aware. And this is how you could use it. Also, if you’re in a stressful meeting or, or a conversation, you could, you could see that, okay, I’m too stressed here. I can breathe a bit more slowly or I can.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (07:52.622)
You

Torkil Færø (08:09.658)
you know, calm myself down. And that would work then if the stress comes from, you know, a mental stress or that your kind of your mind is busy, for example. But many times the stress comes from food that you cannot tolerate. For example, if I’ve been eating chili, for example, the stress level is high, maybe for hours. So and this is how you can identify sources of stress that you wouldn’t necessarily think of.

And when you don’t look for it, you don’t really find it either,

Leigh Ann Lindsey (08:43.488)
Yeah. And so from what I’m gathering, the HRV can change instant almost instantaneously to a stressor. Is that correct?

Torkil Færø (08:52.156)
Yeah, that’s right. So it’s like you feel, know, obviously if something happens, you’re walking on the street, suddenly there’s a dramatic situation, your heart starts to race, right? So the sympathetic nervous system, the fight, flight and free system that is mobilizing your forces, you know, is very, very quick. And because, you know, historically 500,000 years ago, our ancestors had to react immediately to any stressor.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (09:01.112)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (09:19.108)
If you were the latest one to react to situation, you would be eaten first, right? And your genes would not be passed on. But the calming system, the parasympathetic system is a bit more slower to set in. So it’s like you’re going to watch, know, if you see the nature films on the, know, the savanna, zebra would suddenly start to run around, but to calm itself down, it would take a bit longer time.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (09:46.241)
Yeah, well, and to your point, the heart rate that we can actually feel, we can feel that beating, that might dramatically increase instantaneously due to a really severe perceived threat or something going on, but the heart rate variability isn’t something we are able to sense, which is why having a wearable to tell us what that is, is so impactful.

Torkil Færø (10:06.981)
Yeah. Yeah. We would not be able to sense that. may, I can sense it if I’m really, really calm. Maybe in the morning, I can feel this. If I check my pulse at the carotid artery, I can feel the difference. But while we’re busy living our lives and being concentrated on our work or, you know, communication, we don’t have a chance.

to listen to the heart and feel how this is going. And the problem is that all our senses are directed outwards through the historically outward threats to our lives. But what is threatening our lives and health these days, that is too much stress from the inside. And it has never been needed to develop a sense for this. It has just been in the life circumstances. If there’s something happening, you do something and then

The other times you relax. So we never needed this sense for our inner system. So we are really terrible at judging our inner stress levels, which is why so many people go into a burnout situation. They get brain fog, they get fatigue. It’s often say it’s like the body usually whispers and we are poor listeners. And it’s even worse than that because even if the body is just screaming with symptoms with

headaches, with migraines, with stomach pains, and all kinds of trouble, we’re still not listening and calming down. So this is why we really need this as a substitute for the sense that we never needed to develop.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (11:51.179)
Right. Well, and to that point, I might be eating something that I’m a bit sensitive to and it’s not necessarily causing my heart to race, which might be a really extreme cue that something’s off, but that heart rate variability, that very subtle metric is changing. To that point, I was going to ask this question later, but I think it’s important to ask now, are there’s many, many devices now that will tell you HRV, are they all equal? And if not,

Why? Why?

Torkil Færø (12:22.107)
Yeah, they would not be equal. They would all like now I have the Garmin watch, I have the Auraring, I have the Whoop band on at the same time. They all have their strengths and you know, pros and cons. I would by far say that Garmin is the best. You know, it’s an American watch that often athletes use. So it’s originally specialized towards

athletes, but now I think everybody can use the algorithms that they are using. The advantage is that you can keep track 24-7, you get really good graphs, so you can see your stress levels 24-7. And it’s really intuitive, even my mother at 80 years old understands, you know, at least the basics of it, you know, maybe not everything that you can get out of it, but the main thing.

And the aura ring is also nice and particularly if you don’t want to watch or if you don’t want to be so invasive that you are, you know, looking at it or it’s just giving you a morning report and judging your sleep and your restorative sleep for throughout the night. And also the same with the loop and there’s no, there’s no watch face on it. So

you don’t really notice it so much as your Garmin watch. But for accuracy, I would say that Garmin is by far the best. But I think all of the different wearables are so much better than nothing, than your own guesswork. So most of the wearables and devices are okay. But there are some, I think these three are my favorites. I’ve been checking out maybe 15 different

variables, you know, throughout the last six, seven years. So, and these are, I keep coming back to these three, the theory of these.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (14:21.101)
Yeah. And from what I understand, some of them only, they don’t necessarily give you real time HRV measurements. They’re giving you maybe just that average HRV. And that’s where if we’re wanting to specifically use HRV to understand, okay, how did this meal affect me? How did this workout affect me? We really need that real time tracking.

Torkil Færø (14:42.908)
That is only Garmin. That is so far, unfortunately, it’s only Garmin that can do that. I cannot go in this exact moment and see what stress levels I can get from the aura or whoop. And that is the main good thing about the Garmin that you can see how did this meal affect me? How did this meeting affect me? And so on.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (14:48.59)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:07.255)
Yeah, this is in some ways I think a silly question because the question being what are some of those major things that are affecting heart rate variability that we can start to shift or optimize and or use heart rate variability trackers to start to optimize? I know the short answer to this is everything affects us. But I think there’s probably some really big heavy hitting categories.

Torkil Færø (15:30.054)
Hmm?

Torkil Færø (15:33.397)
Absolutely. And the worst hitting category is alcohol. Unfortunately, for many people, including me, I used to be a very happy drinker. Because even at the time, only like 10 years ago, that used to be, you know, recommended by doctors or by me as a doctor. Right. So it was said that two glasses of wine a day for men and one for women, that that would be beneficial for your health.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (15:40.111)
Thank

Torkil Færø (16:03.26)
course, once you use the wearables, you see that this is the worst thing you can do. And I even used it to calm myself down. Maybe even after a busy shift at the ER, I would come home, you know, 11, 12 o’clock in the evening, have a glass or two of wine and then go to sleep, you know, and I would sleep faster, right? But what I didn’t know then, as I didn’t have anything to measure it was that the sleep was terrible and non-restorative. And I would

Leigh Ann Lindsey (16:29.753)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (16:32.858)
then of course blame it on the busy ER shift from the day before. Because I had read that drinking two glasses of wine would be good, and I would feel calm. So if I woke up in the morning, OK, that had to be the busy evening shift, right? Once you get the wearables, see that alcohol is the very worst dresser of all according to Whoop. Because on Whoop, would

the users, they are tagging what they’ve been doing the day before. So they can measure it and they see that alcohol is a worst dresser of all. So, and I don’t think I’ve met anyone using variables that has not cut down or rather minimized their alcohol use. Maybe not cut out totally, you know, if there’s a special occasion, they would still have a glass or two, maybe not as many as they used to have.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (17:10.755)
Wow.

Torkil Færø (17:29.062)
So that’s the most important thing I would say. Also, most people find that food has a lot of impact, that certain foods like ultra-processed food containing gluten, flour-based food, candy and this kind of food will affect their stress levels. Just some days ago, my wife, she went to the movies having

skip dinner and have this big bag of candy and that will be stressed like six, seven hours into the night. most people with the wearables find that they should stop eating maybe three to four hours before they go to bed. That would increase the effect of sleep, more restorative sleep, for example. And of course, women, you may probably have many female listeners.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (18:05.644)
Yeah

Torkil Færø (18:28.132)
The week before menstruation is a real physiological load that is detectable in the heart rate variability. And that is as big as having a strong COVID infection. So I can, so.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (18:40.547)
Wow, it’s impacting your HRV that much. Wow.

Torkil Færø (18:44.695)
yeah, yeah, that much. even, and if you are even more stressed, you may have PMDD, you know, the more serious kind of it that I’ve seen curves that is like 14 days of strain. And of course then it’s really hard to, you know, to keep your health if every week, you know, it’s like a COVID infection, and particularly if you don’t see it.

Because once you see that, you’re able to mitigate the stress and be careful to sleep better and to avoid stressors. While maybe previously you would feel bad and you would comfort yourself with a glass of wine and some chocolate, for example, in the evening. And now that you have these wearables that tells you that this is stressful, you’re able to stay away from that. And then also the curve will flatten out.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (19:28.887)
Haha

Torkil Færø (19:41.862)
So the PMS symptoms will mainly go away. Because that is a stress-based symptoms. You’re not supposed to have PMS. So that is a sign that you are under too much stress, that your cortisol is backfiring on the reproductive hormones, giving you trouble that you can feel.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (19:52.068)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (20:01.709)
Yeah, to that end, how there’s maybe, I want to talk about the nuance of interpreting and then making lifestyle changes based on your HRV because I think there might be some people who go, whatever it might be, I…

I did this workout and my HRV dropped. So that was too much for me and I can never do that again. Or I ate this meal, my HRV dropped, I must be sensitive to this food, I can never eat that again. And I don’t know if that brings as much nuance as we might really need. I think we need to take into account, maybe there’s other factors going on. Maybe I ate that meal and it wasn’t necessarily the food, it’s just that I ate way too much.

Or maybe I did eat this ingredient and my HRV dropped, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be sensitive to that ingredient forever, but right now it might be taxing my body a bit.

Torkil Færø (20:56.955)
Yeah, that sounds right. So you need to repeat and then maybe eat the same meal again under different circumstances and see if it stresses you in the same way. there’s a lot. And I spent like three years like that because what I started with was having an ECG based monitor. I didn’t even know that the watch has had these biometrics. So I had an ECG monitor and I could only see the stress curves.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (21:09.582)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (21:26.991)
And I had to find out what was stressing me. I had no access to other people’s findings. It was only me who was doing this before I released the book, The Pulse Cure. So I had to find out, how on earth does food stress me? That was just a huge surprise, that even two slices of cake could send my heart rate up and my stress.

became really high. So I think for many people, it’s about testing, doing some detective work. And for many people, probably when they see that a certain workout session is too hard, it’s probably right. So I think too many people, they work out too hard compared to their physiology or maybe their circumstances. So if you have a stressful

Leigh Ann Lindsey (22:16.046)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (22:25.924)
work, you have a stressful family life, and you may only have time for two or three workouts, and then you go all out and then do it really hard. It may be too much compared to your available forces. And if you do it, for example, the week before menstruation, when there’s already a physiological strain on your system, you may be adding to the burnout risk, I would say.

So what is good about Garmin is that they give you a recovery time after the workout that I try to keep below 24 hours. So sometimes I go for a race, you know, running 5Ks and then I would get, for example, I did on Saturday, I got 52 hours of recovery time. But usually I try to…

Leigh Ann Lindsey (23:15.807)
It’s telling you that’s how much time you need or that’s how much time you gave yourself.

Torkil Færø (23:19.056)
Yeah, that is how much time I ideally need without adding extra workouts until that time is over.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (23:28.899)
Wow, it actually tells you what that time should be. wow, that’s fascinating.

Torkil Færø (23:34.173)
So these are geared towards athletes. So I find it very, very accurate. And their measurement of the VO2 max is also very accurate. And I’ve been checking it with a test on the treadmill also. And that is a very important number, the VO2 max level, which is a number for your fitness level. And if you find yourself

Leigh Ann Lindsey (23:37.997)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (23:59.012)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (24:01.51)
kind of in the red zone in the poor fitness level. is, VO2 max is the biometric that is most connected to longevity and health over time. So it’s important to know. And if you have a really poor level, say that you have less than 30, for example, in VO2 max, then any workout will be really hard.

and creating a lot of inflammation in your system and you will feel sick and you will not be motivated to do this again. Right. So if you haven’t trained, you know, for a long time or at all, and you start exercising, you should be really, really slow, you know, when you start.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (24:47.807)
Mm-hmm. Building up to it. I agree with the exercise piece, I think. I played soccer my whole life. I played professionally in Spain for a time. being now kind of an ex-athlete, you just have this ingrained in your brain that if it wasn’t hard, if you’re not like panting heavily at the end of a workout, you didn’t do enough. And I’ve really had to retrain my brain to go. More isn’t always more.

Torkil Færø (25:15.846)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (25:15.851)
And in fact, like now not needing to compete athletically on a very, very competitive scale, I found that actually when I do less now, I’ll walk 30 minutes to an hour every day. And that’s almost like the baseline of my physical fitness. And then I do other activities. I’ll go to the gym, I’ll do bar, I’ll play pickleball and volleyball and things like that.

It’s funny because I actually felt like my body responded so, so well to just that very moderate activity, even though I’m not working up a sweat every single time.

Torkil Færø (25:49.02)
Yeah, and you’re outside walking then. Yeah, in the sun. And the sunlight is really, really important. And that is what you can see on the heart rate variability. So if you were to ask me, you probably will, about what can you do to increase your heart rate variability, then sunlight and sun exposure is one of the biggest contributors. In Norway, particularly, you know, we are

Leigh Ann Lindsey (25:53.709)
Yes, exactly.

Torkil Færø (26:16.055)
way up north, right? We’re probably at the same latitude as Alaska. And when people go from the north of Norway and down to like Spain, for example, for to get some sunlight, then the heart rate variability can double. So they and suddenly their symptoms go away. Suddenly they can have one glass of wine or two without being knocked out. so the sunlight

Leigh Ann Lindsey (26:32.237)
Wow.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (26:41.603)
Right.

Torkil Færø (26:44.143)
does so much to our bodies. unfortunately, doctors have been advising against being in the sunlight, covering yourself at all times. And it’s a terrible advice. But you can see it in the heart rate variability.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (27:03.023)
Yeah, well, I want to lean into this for a second. And then I do want to get into, now that we do have more data on HRV, some of those general things that are found to improve it, other than general things, rather than like the nuance for me as an individual. It’s all important, but.

I want to lean into this because I do think sometimes we think in very binary ways. And so it could be really easy to go, this thing caused me stress. Again, therefore I should never do it anymore. when we understand that’s why both those metrics are important. What is maybe my average HRV? What is kind of my general baseline versus what are the things that are causing dips? And it sounds like we might want to have two goals in mind. One is raising that baseline HRV.

as best we can by optimizing lifestyle, optimizing the majority of our choices. When we do that, we’re able to say, have the glass of wine or do that thing that might stress the body a bit. And it’s not going to have such a ripple, negative ripple effect on the body. So it’s not about using this to go, what are all the things I can never do again? And this is, think, really where that nuance comes in.

Torkil Færø (28:18.31)
Yeah, so we should lead flexible lives. So we should be able to not live every day perfectly. you should live, you know, try to optimize or I would rather say normalize 80 % of the days and 20%, you know, is you can like not do whatever you want, but it isn’t so important that you do things perfect every day.

And it’s also important to know that you need to stress. You need to put load on your system, both mentally and physically and physiologically. Otherwise you would not grow stronger, but you need to make room for recovery. So for example, exercising, you know, it’s a strain on your system. And if you don’t make room for recovery, you don’t build yourself stronger, which is why the best athletes, they are as deliberate about

Leigh Ann Lindsey (28:51.182)
rights.

Torkil Færø (29:14.926)
rest and recovery as they are of effort and strain. And we need to think like that in our normal lives too. We need to be in the down state, to be calm and relaxed. It’s not wasted time. It’s even the creative time. That is when you get the ideas. That’s when your brain goes into the default mode network where all the good ideas come from. being able to…

I think I’m looking for flexibility that you’re able to use all your available forces when you need it. And you can calm totally down also when you need that and that you have control and that you can see. Because what these variables do is they give you a kind of a dashboard into your physiology of what goes under the hood, you know, in your organism.

And that makes it so much easier to navigate than when you don’t have any clue of where your physiological balance is. That would be like for your personal economy that you don’t know how much money you make and you go into the store, you have no ideas what things cost. we are blind to our own physiological budget in the same way until we get the variables because

Leigh Ann Lindsey (30:19.446)
Right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (30:38.959)
Hmm.

Torkil Færø (30:41.99)
The heart rate variability is like the dollar. It’s like the currency of our physiology, I would say. It’s like watching the needle on the speedometer. It’s not needles anymore, it’s numbers, but.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (30:49.101)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (30:54.372)
Yeah.

I like that analogy though, because again, then we look at this in two ways. What are the things I’m doing that are costing me way more than I can afford right now? And also when my currency is low, I can use that proactively to make decisions about my day and my week.

Torkil Færø (31:18.298)
Yeah, I agree. And sometimes, you know, you can draw the physiological credit card and take out forces that you haven’t yet, you know, saved up, but you then you know that, okay, I have to pay this back at the other end. You know, you can, you can, you know, pull that credit card, you know, for, for several days and weeks probably. But when it stretches into months, that is when you can get into trouble.

That is when more or less all kinds of disease can happen to you. Because the trouble in our physiology is that it’s kind of a limited amount of energy and our immune system is very demanding of that energy. It usually spends, you know, like 20, 30 % of our energy budget. Our brains use 20%. And so if you are under too much stress, what gives

Leigh Ann Lindsey (31:58.339)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (32:16.71)
That would be the immune system. There would be less circulating, you know, cells and so on to do its job. So it’s like, if you’re, it’s probably comparable if you have, if you have a business and there are hard times, then it’s maintenance that has to give, right? And then you, hopefully you get the surplus again and can pay for it. But it’s sort of like that in the body as well.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:18.317)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:36.942)
right?

Leigh Ann Lindsey (32:40.758)
Yeah, yeah.

Going back to the the work analogy for example, I think this is important in two facets. One, you might if you have one of these wearables you might start to realize, wow I really do get super stressed in these work meetings. I might not have a choice to not attend them but having that information gives me so much more empowerment to be able to bring resources in whether it’s I do a nervous system practice before.

Maybe I’m doing some subtle nervous system work during, or I’m being more conscious of my breath. But the reason I also think that’s impactful is for me as a depth psychologist, I find a lot of people are not consciously aware of their stress. And they think that I’m in this meeting just because I’m not having conscious thoughts that are stressful doesn’t mean unconsciously there might not be a lot of turbulence beneath the surface. And that’s where I think these

HRV monitors can be really impactful. Probably 50 % of the people I work with don’t have conscious emotional turbulence. They’re like, no, in the day I’m good, I’m happy, I’m feeling okay. And yet a lot of their physiological markers are telling a very different story.

Torkil Færø (33:57.693)
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. so there’s, there’s, takes some effort actually to reach the calm state. It doesn’t come by itself. So you’ll be in the meeting and maybe you are stressed, but if you are not consciously aware of it and you don’t have the tools, for example, to do breath work and so on to calm yourself down, you’re, you’re not really in control.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:25.922)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (34:26.416)
So you are under the control of the circumstances. If your boss is stressed, you will be stressed. If the feeling in the boardroom is tense, you’ll be tense, right? You’re not in control. So what you learn when you have these wearables, then you learn to take control. And not only in that kind of situation, but you get in control of your overall health level.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (34:55.491)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (34:56.354)
Once you get your stress in balance, you just have so much more energy and you have a lot less risk of getting sick because heart rate variability is coupled to almost any disease. If you Google a disease you are curious about or that you have and you add heart rate variability, you will see lots of findings. Or if you put it into chat GPT and it will tell you that

I was on, I was on even on a podcast here the other day with a focus on bone health and osteoporosis. I hadn’t really checked out compared to heart rate variability, but I told them that I would be surprised if there wasn’t a connection. And of course it was also in osteoporosis because when the heart rate variability is low, you’re under tumor strain. Your whole immune system is underperforming.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (35:39.566)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (35:52.622)
Any kind of disease can come up.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (35:54.539)
Exactly. To your point, it’s a metric of, I know we’re using this word stress and when we say stress, we think emotional and mental, but it’s physiological stress too. It is the total mind, body and spirit strain on my system. And so when HRV is low, it almost is speaking to, there is a ripe environment for illness to take root in some capacity.

Torkil Færø (36:21.468)
Yeah, and for me as a doctor, the beauty of it is that the way we can measure it is by the two most vital functions in our body, our breath and our heartbeat. And that reveals this state. It’s so simple, you know, that it’s almost you think it’s too good to be true, but it is true. And it’s those two basic functions that is

makes it possible to be aware of it. And of course, it’s just probably known throughout these ancient doctors, right, from Greece and Iran and India and China and whatever that what you could see from the breath and the pulse is valid information. And it’s the first thing I look at at the ER. I was at the ER the whole weekend. the first thing when I get the numbers from the nurse, you know, it’s the heart rate.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (36:57.593)
Right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (37:07.331)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (37:19.276)
is the oxygen level, and it’s the temperature, which these variables also measure. And when I have that information, I have so much insight into the state of the patient, whether it’s serious or not serious. And of course, when you have these nuances in heart rate variability, these variables also track the pattern of movement, which is, of course, super interesting information. And you also have the algorithms

Leigh Ann Lindsey (37:26.319)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (37:49.085)
developed by millions of people, and you have the artificial intelligence helping to interpret what these devices can tell you, then you have this incredibly important tool that gives you the power of your health. Because I’ve been working as a doctor for 26 or 27 years, and it used to be so that the doctors were in control. The patients had really no clue.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (38:05.475)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (38:19.362)
of what was going on. They would have to go to the doctors and present themselves and we would examine and having the solution and the remedy by giving a pill. Now that the information about health is democratized, if you are interested in your own health, you will get information. You will find out what to do. And these variables give you the control then.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (38:42.561)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (38:48.252)
So you have insight into the numbers that are important and you are able to take control of your own health. it’s quite a huge shift in power from the doctor and the healthcare system and it’s out of your hands and this is in your hands literally. So you can take charge.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (39:07.457)
Yeah. This is a quick kind of nuanced question, but when we do something that negatively affects us, can you really tell how negatively impactful something is for you? Because if it’s really seriously impactful, your HRV will drop significantly versus if it’s just mildly impactful, it might only drop a few points.

Torkil Færø (39:30.086)
Yeah, absolutely. You would see that easily. You would see that, for example, if you get a COVID infection, it can knock you out for a long time. It could take a month or two to get back at the state you were in before the infection. While if you’re having just a common cold, you just shake it off in a few days. It’s like nothing.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (39:31.597)
and then also maybe how long. Okay.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (39:41.614)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (39:48.525)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (39:57.988)
Yeah, as you can see very clearly what will strongly affect your system and only…

Leigh Ann Lindsey (40:05.539)
Meaning, let me make up a random thing. Let’s say I eat a McDonald’s Happy Meal and my HRV immediately drops by 30 points. then I eat something I may be sensitive to. I don’t know. I’m making something up. I eat some other meal and my HRV drops by three points. It can really be that specific in how it drops. And then kind of on

Torkil Færø (40:14.811)
Hmm?

Torkil Færø (40:26.063)
Hmm?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There used to be actually a doctor, he was called Dr. Koukai in the fifties. And he was kind of the father of, you know, allergy. And he had a system where you could find food allergies by watching the pulse, by testing out, okay, you eat this meal. If your heart rate goes up like this much, okay, that means that you are sensitive to this food.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (40:49.87)
Wow.

Torkil Færø (40:59.451)
And so many people find that when they are fasting, because this is also something that when you are fasting, you can see it on your heart rate variability, that that is beneficial for you. At least if they’re shorter fast, if it’s prolonged, it could be a strain on your system. Not necessarily bad, but it would be hard. But I usually find that if I have an eating window of

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:11.266)
huh.

Torkil Færø (41:28.251)
maybe eight hours, that is very beneficial for both how I feel and the heart rate variability. So it depends what I eat. If I eat pizza, that’s horrible, for example. At least maybe in Italy, it’s better. They have better pizzas. But if I eat a pizza, a standard pizza here in Norway or in the US, it’s really stressful way into the night.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:34.777)
Mm-hmm. And then is it?

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:41.144)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:47.011)
Yeah, better ingredient.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (41:52.527)
Yeah. Is it also, I imagine, a way to track maybe the body’s resilience? Meaning, let’s say that that same, I’m making, again, something silly, that McDonald’s Happy Meal, maybe before I did a bunch of work, that would drop my HRB by 30 points, and then it would take me a week to recover.

but I started optimizing other things, not my food yet, but I’m optimizing other things. And so I eat that happy meal again three months later. It still drops my HRV by 30 points, but I’m able to bounce back two days later.

Torkil Færø (42:29.884)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It kind of adds up. So if you’re already strained your system from something and you add another thing, it can go down further. And if you add that other thing another day, you can tolerate it better. Absolutely. So you would be able to see that.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (42:31.459)
That’s also a way to kind of track your body’s resilience.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (42:49.325)
Right. Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (42:53.775)
In general, if someone were to be like, okay, I wanna start to optimize HRV other than getting the devices or a device, what would be some of those general things that if you’re like, if you wanna optimize your HRV, here are the key things we need to shift or look at or cut out or optimize?

Torkil Færø (43:10.748)
Yeah, yeah, I’m describing this in my book, The Pulse Cure, and it has kind of, I call it stages of an expedition. And the first thing is to improve your sleep. Because once you sleep better, you get more energy to use on the other things that could demand more willpower and more effort. So make sure that you sleep those seven to eight hours that you’re

bedroom is totally dark and cool, maybe 60 to 65 degrees Fahrenheit, that you wind down, dim the lights in the evening to get that melatonin that not only gets you into sleep, but while you’re sleeping has so many functions in your body in the recovery of your body. If you have the lights on that I know that 40 % of Americans do have some lights on in the bedroom, that will diminish the melatonin.

and so it doesn’t work as well. And that these variables are so good at measuring the quality of your sleep. They may not be that accurate about the sleep phases, but the total quality of your sleep and the sleep score that you would get from your device, that is maybe the most valuable information you can get. So make sure that you sleep and then make sure that you eat properly.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (44:31.759)
Hmm.

Torkil Færø (44:39.404)
eat real food, whole foods, food that your great grandmother would recognize as something edible and that you don’t eat at the evening. Keep those three hours, the last meal three hours away from bedtime. what more, minimize alcohol and also to have a certain level of fitness. It only needs to be average actually for health reasons.

There’s no real need to go beyond being in average, average fitness level. If you put in, you know, 10 hours a week to improve your VO2 max, you wouldn’t get it back into in health, you know, quality. Walk more. And you should have some way of calming yourself down. So that could be doing breath work that we have been talking about and that

Leigh Ann Lindsey (45:14.041)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (45:38.417)
The easiest thing to do there is just to breathe more slowly. So breathe maybe six breaths a minute, which would be like, you know, five seconds in and five seconds out, for example, or four seconds in and six seconds out. It can be useful to have a longer exhale than inhale. And you can also do things like cold exposure, cold showers. You could be reading. Reading is very,

restorative for many people. yeah, meditation and so many of these practices can be useful to calm yourself down. So I think that would be the most important things.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (46:19.704)
Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (46:23.563)
Mm-hmm. I want to ask a couple more follow-up questions. One is I’ve had, don’t use any wearables consistently other than I do wear my Apollo, which maybe we’ll talk about and I have questions on that too, but I’ve had friends and clients say things like, I woke up this morning and my readiness score was really low, but I feel great. Why might that be? Is that speaking to…

Torkil Færø (46:45.212)
Hmm?

Now that can be because the readiness score and the sleep score, for example, can be two different things. And how you feel in the morning will be more affected by your sleep score than your readiness score. So whether you have been going through the right sleep phases and particularly whether you have woken up from light sleep and not deep sleep. For example, if you wake up from REM sleep, maybe you feel really bad.

But that is because you woke up from that sleep phase. So you need to wait maybe an hour or two before you can really judge how the quality of the night was. that is one thing. the readiness score is a measurement of the state of your physiological balance. So it’s not everything.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (47:28.78)
Uh-huh.

Torkil Færø (47:46.941)
You know what, goes on in the, your prefrontal cortex, you could have excellent thoughts. You could be very happy. You know, you could have a enjoyed and been remember something fun you did the day before and feel good. That would not necessarily affect your heart rate variability. What the heart rate variability is judging is the reptile brain system is the basic.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (47:47.385)
Right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (48:03.073)
R.A.P.E.

Torkil Færø (48:16.292)
you know, the brainstem, how the vagus nerve works, how your sympathetic system works. It doesn’t tell you that much about how your prefrontal cortex works, you know. So, it’s just a part, but a very important part of the equation. And it’s a part of the equation where most people stumble because they’re not even aware of the importance of it.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (48:31.087)
Don’t leave.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (48:46.124)
Exactly.

Torkil Færø (48:46.822)
So if you have an overly stressed system, it’s really hard to feel good, right? If you’re under too much stress. So, yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (48:57.485)
Well, I think this is also where it speaks to a couple of things. One, if you, it could speak to, maybe there’s an underlying infection brewing. I don’t feel it just yet, but there’s some very subtle stress around my system. That’s why, even though in this acute moment, I feel good, I feel energized, something could be brewing. But also, correct me if I’m wrong, if you feel like you are doing so many things, right? Your sleep is optimized, your food is optimized.

your exercise is optimized and yet your HRV is not changing. Why that might be a sign that something much more serious might be going on health-wise beneath the surface.

Torkil Færø (49:39.301)
It could be. Absolutely. The most common in that situation, because of course they ask me on Instagram every day, these kinds of questions. The most common would be that you have a food intolerance that you are not able to identify. And that it may be complex. It may be 10, 15 different things that you are reacting to. Often only because of two or three culprits. But the other ones kind of…

Leigh Ann Lindsey (49:55.118)
Okay.

Torkil Færø (50:08.954)
go along and you are reacting to them too. So that is the most common thing. It could even be cancer. Okay. If there’s a serious disease like cancer or heart disease or some autoimmune disease, it can be the reason too, that you have a low heart rate variability despite that you’re doing everything in the book. That is the common question that I get. And then you should go to the…

doctor then of course and check if there’s something going on in your body and your heart rate. Yeah, yeah. It could be, absolutely. It could be iron deficiency. It could be vitamin D deficiency, B12 deficiency. It could be that your thyroid hormones are out of whack. It could be breast cancer. It could be…

Leigh Ann Lindsey (50:45.325)
Right, a deeper dive into potential contributors that might be beyond, you know, food, sleep, lifestyle.

Torkil Færø (51:08.048)
that you have some heart problem. So I’ve heard all of these, you know, people tell me.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (51:11.407)
Yeah, that’s really interesting. Yeah, when you, I like it as a metric to look at both of those sort of across the board. What is my general score? How can I raise that? If I’m not able to raise it, there might be something beneath the surface I need to go find some support identifying.

We work, like I said before we started recording, I work with a lot of cancer and chronic illness very much in the integrative holistic world. So a huge part of the work is going, what might be those underlying contributing factors that are taking up capacity in my body? Is there mold? Is there heavy metals? Are there hormone imbalances, some of these different things, despite other things being very optimized?

Torkil Færø (51:55.965)
Yeah, absolutely. And it could be the lack of sunlight. Yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (51:59.531)
Mm-hmm. yeah, and just like that gentle movement. Okay, last two questions. One is we’re talking about lifestyle things we can do to support HRV, which I love because honestly, most of these are free. They’re just little tweaks we get to make to optimize. I do want to ask about devices, not necessarily to track HRV, but devices that claim to support HRV. For example, I use the Apollo Neuro wearable.

I don’t have it specifically for HRV, although their third party studies have shown it increases HRV by 11%. It’s more for just that gentle nervous system support throughout the day. But in your opinion, are those things worth looking into, worth having? I’d love your two cents on that.

Torkil Færø (52:49.168)
Yeah, as you say, most of the things that work are free or even cheaper. Drink water fast, that is obviously cheaper. Go outside, do breath work, cold showers, eat real food, sleep better, rest. So all of these things are free and available to

anyone. And sunlight, of course, everything is free. Nature, being outside. So all of these things are free. And there are some devices that I have here actually. It’s a NeuroSim. It’s a Vegas stimulator. that I have used sometimes. It seems to work, actually. It’s a Vegas stimulator that you put on the ear, send some

Leigh Ann Lindsey (53:37.007)
Hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (53:43.353)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (53:49.167)
small amount of electricity and kind of stimulates the vagus nerve. So that I found useful. haven’t, I don’t know about your Apollo, so would be curious to know what that means.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (54:02.283)
Yeah, it uses, I mean, I’m sure you can jump on their website and look more, but it uses like gentle vibration haptics to sort of, I say send safety signals to the nervous system. But I’ll tell you the one reason why I like this specifically, and there’s tons and tons of nervous system devices out there, but I do like this one the best just because it’s so practical.

And to your point, many of us are busy and absolutely we want to understand HRV to know what really does need to change. I do think many of us need to make conscious changes in our life. We need to slow down. We need to get out in nature more. We need to move slower. We need to eat more whole foods. all that, doesn’t replace all of that, but the reason I like this, at least for me personally, and also for a lot of my cancer and chronic illness patients is

this, knowing that I have this on all day and that it is supporting my HRV, it’s settling my nervous system is kind of just a nice fallback for me of like, even on my most stressful day, I can still without even needing to think about it, be giving my nervous system these safety signals. I like it a lot for some of my cancer and chronic illness patients because sometimes they’re just in such a state of depletion.

that the energy it might take to do a 30 minute meditation or some of these other things is just, they just do not have the capacity to do that. And so to be able to kind of have this in the background is a really nice thing for them. So it’s just practical, but for me, it’s never the end all be all. It’s not, well, all you need is this and you don’t need to change anything. No.

Torkil Færø (55:37.278)
Yeah, that’s interesting device. I’ve also used a device called the Muse, M-U-S-E, know, a headband that senses your EEG patterns. It’s kind of a meditation device and that has been really useful. I really love to use that. there are probably…

Leigh Ann Lindsey (55:45.03)
huh. huh.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (55:54.67)
Right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (55:59.245)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (56:01.34)
Lots of different things and technology that you can use also. But the main things that I’m talking about in my book, they’re free, accessible to anyone. And often the easiest thing is also the best thing,

Leigh Ann Lindsey (56:16.621)
Right, exactly, I think we do sometimes have this, we wanna complicate things because it makes us feel like we earned it. If it was really, really hard, okay, I earned it, I deserve this good health because now I worked so hard for it. And sometimes I think it can just be simple.

Torkil Færø (56:24.721)
Hmm. Yep.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (56:35.055)
Okay, last question, and this is more of a personal question for me in my practice. So I work with individuals, a lot of what we’re doing is metabolizing past trauma, particularly what were those imprints on the unconscious? And oftentimes I’ll have patients ask me like, how do we know when this work is done?

And it’s still a very subjective thing, right? I can’t say, okay, well now we know exactly, we never ever ever have to revisit that. It’s done, it can be put on the shelf or whatever, right? It’s very hard, I think with emotional things, it’s more subjective. And a few years ago, I was like, gosh, I would just love some metric.

that I could give them to show improvement. And for a time I was really thinking about HRV and is this a reliable metric to show that because we know now there’s plenty of studies showing that when there is past trauma that affects the nervous system, that affects the immune system, that affects HRV. And so I want to get your two cents on this. Does that feel like it could be something that is reliably

telling people some of the healing that’s happening. think what immediately comes to my mind that’s hard about that is you kind of have to isolate it and go, okay, don’t make any other changes in your life. Let’s do this deep trauma work for a month and see how your HRV changes.

Torkil Færø (58:05.405)
Yeah, I think it absolutely would work. Actually, the first time I heard about heart rate variability was from the book, The Body Keeps the Score that you probably have read from Bessel van der Kolk. And he was describing how they, as psychiatrists in the US, were using heart rate variability as a measurement of the state of the patients to the degree, you know, if they were even available for treatment.

So if your heart rate variability is really, really low, you don’t really have the energy or reserve capacity to be able to use your brain in the right way. So they were even using it to that extent. absolutely. And before that book, I had never heard about the concept of heart rate variability. So I’m sure that once you get

Leigh Ann Lindsey (58:45.816)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (59:01.467)
you know, to solve some of the trauma, it would be visible in the heart rate variability. That is for sure.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (59:06.688)
Yeah. No, here’s my question. I do have many, many clients and patients who have wearables. So it could be an interesting thing to be like, okay, you’re just starting this deep trauma tending unconscious work. Because you have a wearable, let me know what your average HRV is. And I can just ask them for that. And then maybe a month later, two months later, ask how it may have changed.

That does seem like something, but for people who don’t have an HRV, want to understand. It sounds like if I had some kind of device to measure their HRV, I couldn’t just measure it acutely on that day. That might not be very accurate. Is that right? Because you really need to understand what the average is, not necessarily that acute day.

Torkil Færø (59:52.232)
Yeah, the best thing would be the average overnight, over time. You know, so that you have, because you can see the pattern over time. So you would be able to see whether you’re on the way up or down. And so the heart rate variability throughout the night. The alternative to that would be to measure the heart rate variability in the morning before they get out of bed.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (59:58.787)
Okay, yeah.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:00:08.047)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:00:21.004)
Okay.

Torkil Færø (01:00:21.293)
And you know, if they have a cell phone, there are probably lots of apps who can measure it using the light, the camera light on the cell phone. So they could use that even if they don’t have the wearable, but the wearable would be by far preferable. What is a bit of the problem if they have had a lot of trauma is that they will see on the wearables the real reality.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:00:25.933)
Yeah, you’re right.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:00:30.991)
Mm-hmm.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:00:39.598)
Mm-hmm.

Torkil Færø (01:00:50.673)
that they are under too much stress, that the numbers are in the red zone, that they are way too much stress. And that may stress them, in my opinion. But it’s even more the reason to use it. And even more that they have to be very, very patient because to get out of a situation

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:01:03.563)
Yeah.

Torkil Færø (01:01:18.151)
where they have been under too much stress for a long time, then the nervous system is a lot, lot harder to get out of or to get in balance. And once they know that and they’re patient and they don’t get frustrated, even if they see the numbers are not as positive as they maybe would have hoped for, but of course it just shows the reality that they are under too much stress. But when they get from

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:01:44.43)
Right.

Torkil Færø (01:01:47.229)
from terrible to not so bad. Even that is a huge step.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:01:54.421)
Mm-hmm. Well, it’s and it’s not a it’s not a life sentence. I see every single day every single week with patients that

Just because there’s past trauma doesn’t mean you are doomed to be in a stress state the rest of your life. In fact, when we are able to really metabolize those traumatic experiences or acute or chronic events or dynamics, the body wants to return to equilibrium. The body wants to return to a state of safety. But so often, at least in my work, I also see a lot of people are doing the conscious psychological work, but we need to really be doing that unconscious work.

And it’s just making me think of for that person who might be changing the food and changing the sleep and changing the exercise, but their HRV isn’t improving that much. also could be a sign of that deeper unconscious mental emotional stress too.

Torkil Færø (01:02:46.599)
Yeah. Yeah. And when they see that it gets better, for example, if they, because often if you’ve had trauma, you would resort to strategies that are not really helping you. Like what you eat, what you would drink and so on. so once you, for example, see that, okay, just going for a walk for an hour out in nature has a lot of impact.

even more than you maybe would have felt when you can see that on your wearable, it’s motivating to do that and to stay away from the poorer choices.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:03:25.635)
Right, right. Well, to your point, we’re not just using it to track the negative impacts. When you can quantitatively see the positive impact, that’s very motivating to continue with those habits. Yeah. Okay. Now do have one last very, very specific question. Do all Garmin watches track HRV 24 seven or is there one particular model?

Torkil Færø (01:03:36.849)
Hmm, yeah.

Torkil Færø (01:03:48.539)
No, they all do that. they all, I think at this now, the new ones, I think they all have heart rate variability over time. like you get, you can see the patterns over time. I don’t think they make anything now that doesn’t have that feature. They may, so you may need to check that because if they don’t have that, you should find the model that do have that.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:04:13.848)
Okay.

Torkil Færø (01:04:15.121)
So, and that would also be the cheapest option. I’m sure you would find it like to $250, which would be probably a half price from Aura and Whoop. So it’s also the cheapest option.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:04:26.903)
Yeah, well that’s fantastic. Well, Dr. Farrow, thank you so much. Was there anything we didn’t cover that you feel like is really, really important we touch on?

Torkil Færø (01:04:35.357)
Hmm. No, maybe somewhat about the female reproductive. Heart rate variability and stress is related to not only PMS, but endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome, to fertility and to tendency of spontaneous abortion. it’s particularly for women, it’s so important to have this.

And of course, if they want to read more about this, they can read my book, The Pulse Cure, where I explain all of this. Just been this huge Norwegian bestseller translated into like nine languages. So it just totally changed my life totally around. yeah, yeah. And it’s also an audio book. So in case you’d rather listen to a book, that is also possible.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:05:17.781)
Yeah, I’m so glad. I’m so glad it’s been doing so well.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:05:29.325)
Yeah, even better. Well, thank you so much. I’ll make sure the book, the website, your social media is all linked in the show notes as well. But this was so lovely. Thank you, Dr. Faero.

Torkil Færø (01:05:39.518)
Thank you, Leigh Ann. Very nice to be talking to you.

Leigh Ann Lindsey (01:05:43.192)
You too.