THE ACCRESCENT™ PODCAST EPISODE 191

Ep 191 FINAL

[00:00:00] Hello, welcome back to the Accrescent Podcast. I’m your host, Leigh Ann Lindsey. Well, by the time you guys are listening to this on Monday, I am probably sitting in class for my PhD program up in Santa Barbara. I’ll be up here all week for our residential session. So even though I’m taking some time off from clients and all of the other work, it will definitely be a very, very busy, full engaging week for me.

So as you’re driving in your car, wherever you’re listening, you can picture me in class, learning about depth psychology, the unconscious psyche, spirit. All the things, and I actually think it’s so apt for today’s conversation because Evan Marks is here today. He’s one of the founders of the Ecology Center, which is a 25 acre organic regenerative farm right here in Orange County.

I have loved the Ecology Center for years now. I go there on a weekly basis, honestly, just to do some of my grocery shopping. I love [00:01:00] to get my seasonal fresh fruits and vegetables right from them, as well as some other little knickknacks and sweet treats that only they have. So I’m a frequent flyer. I love going there.

They also now have a beautiful farm cafe that is made with all farm fresh ingredients. And it’s just such a special place to be able to go and spend some time, even if you don’t need groceries. I love going there, sitting on on the property, getting something from the cafe to get some work done or just kind of enjoy, enjoy a good meal out in nature with really, really authentic, genuine people.

And one of the things we talk about in this episode is reciprocity and the unconscious narratives that I think not just we as humans can carry, but that spaces and plants and businesses can carry and communicate. And so this conversation, yes, we’re talking about organic regenerative farming, how that might be different from [00:02:00] conventional farming, but this is really, I’d say, so much more of a philosophical, soulful, spiritual conversation about our relationship with the land, why it might be.

When we’re not integrated with the land, when there’s not reciprocity with the land, how that affects so much more than just the ecosystem of nature, how that might really be affecting the ecosystem within this. I knew this was going to be such a soulful conversation having listened to a few of Evan’s previous podcast interviews, but it completely exceeded my expectations.

These are absolutely some of my favorite conversations to have, so I hope you enjoy this conversation with Evan Marks well, Evan, welcome to the Accrescent Podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. I. We were just kind of talking off air. This might be a very sort of soulful conversation more than people might think, considering we’re gonna be talking about farming and [00:03:00] the land.

But I think what I love so much about the Ecology Center is that it is so much more than just a farm. It really is. You said something in a podcast I was listening to of yours, like, we nourish the community and more than just food, you’re nourishing the community I think, in so many different ways. And so that’s what I’m excited to talk about more.

But welcome, thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you. I, I think I would love, I, I heard a little bit of your introductory kind of origin story, but I think for the audience it would be really fun to hear how you specifically got into maybe farming or agriculture and then kind of founding the Ecology Center.

Yeah, I mean, to the point of the nourishment, you know, we are a nourish mind, body, and spirit. So it’s a, it’s, it’s, it transcends just the ingredients. And that’s, that’s, that segues into the one of what we’re the real purpose here. And ultimately my origin story is putting the culture back in the agriculture.

And so, um, yeah, [00:04:00] I grew up in Newport Beach, um, committed lifelong surfer. Um, as a teenager I was, uh, confronted with a major statistic that changed my life, which is at agriculture, it was the number one impact on our oceans, uh, pollution run off from our farms. Um, the way, so that opened a door for, what does that even mean?

But it really, I, I started learning quite a bit about how we’ve industrialized our planet, um, specifically our food production, but really in every, every nook and cranny, every, every detail. Um, we’ve had this dominant paradigm of taking over and, and removing the life-giving forces and inserting our, our, our own expectations and versions of, of needs.

Um, and so there’s a compromise that comes with that. Um, not just ocean health, but, but human health and, and so many other elements that I’m sure we can talk about today. But that, that was sort of my open door, um, into the practical, which got me into, I ended up at [00:05:00] uc, Santa Cruz, and I got a degree in ecology.

I wanted to solve, uh, a little bit of that, that problem if I could, if said, if not me, then who was a little bit of, of sort of my philosophy in life. So I’ve been lucky to have some of those creative capacities to solve problems and, and forge new paths as a pioneer species. But I was supported. Um, I wa this isn’t a new idea, I guess is a good way to do it.

I’ve, I’ve, I’ve pioneered some of these ideas in this geography. Um, but when I went to Santa Cruz, I was nurtured and if you will, nourished by a lineage of people that had been doing this for 50 years before me. Mm-hmm. Um, and ultimately indigenous communities that have done this for, for hundreds of years, 500,000 years of people basically have always, um, before the in inventive industry, we always grew food in community.

Um, and we always grew [00:06:00] food in relationship to leaving it better than we found it. Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s common around the world. If you imagine, um, you know, that’s, that’s, that is the culture and the agriculture is that the food in the farm is the heart of a community, whether that’s in Ohio or Nebraska or Guatemala or San Juan Capistrano.

It doesn’t matter where, but but, but if you just reel it back a couple generations, that was, that’s a true statement. And so we had a deeper relationship to our farmer friends and, um, and ultimately, um, the food that we were putting on our table for our family. So yeah, that was some of my, my inspiration origin story.

I took that into Latin America, um, both for tourists, two different reasons. I, um, I was, I’m, I’m consistently fascinated by the tropics, um, and the cultures of the tropics. So I’ve been able to live with many indigenous communities and, and even non-indigenous communities in the tropics, but local people throughout Latin [00:07:00] America, places like, um, from Mexico to Costa Rica, to Panama, to Peru, to Ecuador.

Um, and most of my time in Latin America for six years was spent, um, in the, in the inquiry of can we restore a large. Tropical ecosystem that was a degraded pasture in the OSA Peninsula of Costa Rica into a vibrant, uh, tropical ecology that was based on trees, just like the native ecology, but it was gonna be food producing.

Um, so I was able to find a lot of success in putting the pieces back together and then developing a community of, um, of those, the Costa Ricans that lived on the land. And we did this together and it was, it was a, it was a healthy, uh, case study for me as a young 20-year-old. Um, so that was really good early, early evolution for me.

I ended up in Africa simultaneously after that, um, with a similar, um, opportunity to design a community and a farm. And that was, that was really my big [00:08:00] turning, um, which was that Africa was so inspiring and, um, I. It really overwhelming. I realized that I, I could have spent the rest of my life in Africa, but I’m not African.

And so it, it was right then that I made the call to actually come back to where I, where I came from, which is Orange County. Mm-hmm. Um, and was fortunate enough to come to San Juan Capistrano, which really is the last bastion of agriculture in this once very agrarian community of, of Orange County. Um, so there was an, there was a, his, there’s a historic farm here that I was able to show up on with a historic, beautiful 140 year old farmhouse that was empty and a dirt lot around it.

And I planted the seed with, uh, the city. And I had a vision for creating a cultural and a community center where we can start thinking critically about our future together in relationship to food, but so many other topics. And that was the birth of the Ecology Center in 2008. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll stop there.

But that was, that was a little bit of my [00:09:00] whirlwind of, of journey in inquiry learning and coming home. Yeah, I mean, even as you were talking, you, you already said it, but I, as you were talking, I was thinking, gosh, was it so hard to come back? Because I could imagine, I lived in Spain for a time. I was playing soccer over there abroad, and I, there was a moment where I was like, I could never go back.

I could just stay here for the rest of my life. And then there’s something that inevitably does kind of pull you back. But it sounds like maybe you had that moment too, and you were like, nah, I gotta go back. Yeah. I never, I never thought I’d come back to Orange County. Um, so it was difficult. And then, and then once I had the right opportunity and the right love, which was to invest myself fully into something bigger than myself, it became very easy.

And then of course, I’ve been overwhelmed with the. And, uh, enthusiasm of the local community here. Mm-hmm. So we’ve been very well supported and, and that continues to grow. But yeah, I’m, I’m happy to be [00:10:00] back and I’ve been able to create my own ecotopia and my own reality in, in, in this community. And, and so that’s been helpful as well.

Yeah. Well, it sounds like, this is kind of an aside, but it sounds like you’ve really curated and attracted in the people that nourish you so that you can do this work and you’ve really kind of Yeah. You’ve really curated a support system for yourself of alignment and authenticity that I think just continues to feed and allow you to do what you do.

Right. I, I, I, I agree with that. I think because this is such a unique environment, this land is extraordinary. It’s, um, this is a hotman land, so this was a village site before. Uh, the colonialism. This was a farm for the last 140 years with a lot of really beautiful stories and richness of evolution. I, I call it the land of infinite possibility.

So, so yes, it does attract just a wonderful group of people, um, [00:11:00] to participate in, in various forms. But yeah, this, this is, uh, this is definitely a, um, a place that is, um, is unique and, and so people resonate with that, that are ready to open that door. Mm-hmm. Completely. I think a good starting point, even for myself, because I don’t understand this very well, is organic farming, but even more than that, regenerative organic farming versus conventional farming.

How are these different? I know this is probably like the most bare bones basic thing we could talk about, but I do think there’s probably many, many, many of us, myself included, who really don’t understand the difference between all of those and just how much goes into it. Yeah. I think that’s a great starting place.

I think that’s a great starting place. Um, and I can keep it pretty simple, you know, conventional agriculture, um, you know, in general is, is is mostly an industrial agriculture. Um, so industrial agriculture in [00:12:00] general integrates the use of synthetic fertilizers, fossil fuel-based fertilizers, um, synthetic pesticides, um, often toxic to to wildlife and various other, um, forms of biology from soil microorganisms all the way through keystone species.

Um, conventional agriculture is mostly designed for commercial benefit, so it’s really an extraction industry. Um, it doesn’t, none of these things have to be true, but this are general, these are generalizations, you know, right there, there are many farmers that farm conventionally that are great stewards of the land.

Um, I’m not here to be a, to, to, to create a villain. There’s no good, bad, right and wrong necessarily, but there is a journey. And I think as a, I’m a first generation farmer, so I only, I have to bring humility to that, that, um, that, that in general, I like to believe that all farmers, um, at [00:13:00] our best wanna be a great steward of the land.

I think that’s part of our DNA. And so sometimes a lot of the methodologies that we’ve been in, we’ve inherited from industry are, uh, compromised that, that vision. And so basically, yeah, conventional agriculture is, is that big catchall for a more extractive and industrial operation. Whether it’s growing, you know, 10,000 acres of soybeans in the Midwest, or, you know, a conventional operation that’s growing 30 acres of fairly toxic strawberries in, in Orange County, right?

Mm-hmm. And so it’s, it’s, it’s all of the above. Um. Of course, the segue there is organic is getting the, the, the toxins off the land. So organic agriculture, certified organic agriculture, um, has always been an endeavor of the small farmer, um, which is to use the resources that you have, um, in a more natural state.

So you’re, instead of using a a conventional [00:14:00] non-organic petrochemical fertilizer, you’re gonna use animal manure and compost, uh, cover crops and soil rotation, crop rotation. Right. So you’re, you’re starting to think about the health of the ecology, not just the extraction of the ingredient. So that’s just the organic is like the first step towards a long journey of creating a more, uh, healthy ecology.

Um, so, um, yeah, organic, by and large is removing the, the, the poisons. Um, it can still be very industrial, it can still be very extractive. And so that’s where we, over the last 20 years, what was a small. Cottage idea of young, uh, of family farmers and hippies, growing food organically in a diverse way has now been co-opted by industry.

And so we can buy organic vegetables at all of your local grocery stores. And so we’ve, there’s, and I think that’s good. Um, but it’s not, it’s, it’s still not, it’s, there’s a good, better best. It’s, it’s good. It’s not great. And [00:15:00] yeah. And so you, you, you know, you’re still, you know, you’re buying, you can buy organic lettuce at Safeway or Whole Foods.

It’s still industrial. It’s still not really, um, in my opinion, the, the best of the best, which is supporting family farmers and family farmers that, that care about creating a more of an ecosystem, both with relationship to their community, but also in terms of the health of their farm, uh mm-hmm. Ecology.

Mm-hmm. And so the regenerative is sort of that far end, which is, um, really looking at the farm as an ecosystem. So the farm health in relationship to the human health and the community health, it’s all intertwined. Um, so regenerative has a few different ways of defining itself. You know, we are regenerative organic certified, which we are proud.

And, um, what that really means is that the, we have, there’s, there’s real definition around our, our, the diversity on our farm, um, as a, as an integral part to the health and the [00:16:00] ecology. Um, there’s a real focus of the, the rotation of the ingredients so that we’re maintain all, all towards health as well, which is, um, just constantly moving ingredients around so that you don’t create disease.

Hmm. The diversity of, of the ingredients. So from annuals and perennials. So we grow vegetables, flowers, and trees for trees and other perennial plants. So that’s sort of like creating a more dynamic and diversity ecology. So that there’s home for wildlife and habitat for beneficial insects. Um, so it’s just creating, it’s, and you can kind of see these things pretty easily.

It’s, um, actually before I talk about that, the other big piece is, is soil health, but it’s also looking at the human health. So we pay all of our workers a living wage where we’re really proud of. We love our mm-hmm. Our team. Um, so we, we try to show the surplus, all of the resources, experts we have, go to the farmers.

Um, so by and large, you can, as a, as a lay person, you can [00:17:00] understand the health of many things just by opening up your observation, just by opening up your senses. If you walked into your, you know, a neighbor’s front yard and it was just a perfectly manicured grass lawn, is that, is that regenerative? Is that conventional, or is that organic?

It’s probably gonna be pretty conventional industrial. Right. So that mm-hmm. How that manifests into our neighborhoods and our suburbs. You may have a neighbor that has a native landscape that’s low maintenance and just has habitat happening and it’s beautiful. It’s more wild. But, but it’s, there’s ecology.

Um, and that’s what my, you know, that’s what my yard looks like at home, which is that this beautiful, um, wild landscape full of fruit trees and native plants and, and it’s really a forest garden. And, and, um, and so that’s more on the regenerative side and, and that these are, some of these ideas are, are, are art as well as science.

And so I, I I hope I, I don’t know if that helps paint the picture a little bit, but completely. Oh, I have, I have a couple follow up questions ’cause I’d love to go into that even [00:18:00] deeper of just why is this even important? And understanding actually a little bit of maybe the, the biology or the chemistry, the ecology of all these things.

But something I think I wanna point out, and this kind of brings us back to that conversation of soul, is somewhere along the line, we got this idea, I think very indirectly, but socially through culture that. It’s the perfection. It’s the perfectly trimmed yard. It’s the perfectly placed flower box. And there’s something about that that we think is fulfilling.

And yet when I step onto the Ecology Center and the wildness that’s there, it’s like my heart just feels at home. Yeah. And I think our souls are yearning for that. We think our soul is yearning for perf perfection and pristine and perfectly clipped. But I actually think our souls are yearning for this organic, not just in terms of no pesticides, but this organic, natural, ancestral way of living.

And you know, [00:19:00] I put this in the questions we had sent over to you. There’s, there’s, there’s narratives in the land at the ecology Center that your soul can hear when you walk on that property. Um, I work so much with the unconscious and what are the unconscious narratives running my show. But if I zoomed out really, really big, I think.

I think plants are giving us narratives. Buildings can have unconscious narratives. Furniture can have unconscious narratives, and it’s sort of like, what are the narratives we’re surrounding ourself with? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think there, you know, just when I walk on the Ecology Center, I feel surrounded by these beautiful narratives of reciprocity and nourishment and wildness, et cetera.

Yeah. I mean, just to speak to that a little bit, you know, our core values are to care for the earth, to care for people and to share the surplus we have. So, you know, we’re, we’re really trying to model that. But to [00:20:00] your point, um, I also agree that I do believe that humans are at their best when they have a, a relationship to nature.

Mm-hmm. Um, for a lot of reasons. Um, which is, that’s how we fe, that’s how we find inspiration. Um, that’s also how, how we, how we, how we, how we resource ourselves, how we, how we come to the creativity, um, imagination, um, depth and purpose. You know, all of these things we mostly can only find in nature, um, in my opinion, and for whatever, for many reasons.

Because mother earth and nature is big and powerful and uncontrollable. The human for the last at least 500 years has done the best job it possibly can, which is overly industrious in order to dominate and conquer nature. And by and large, we’ve done it. Mm-hmm. And we’ve conquered almost all of what, what we could ever see and imagine in the forms of agriculture and industry and, [00:21:00] and, you know, development cities and you.

But we can, what, you know, all the forms, um. And so that doesn’t bring us to health and wellbeing. That doesn’t bring us to abundant mindsets and generosity. That doesn’t bring us into the consciousness that we’re all in this together. We’re on a living planet and we wanna work together to leave it better than we found.

It actually brings us the opposite. It brings us further from one another. Mm-hmm. Brings us into the idea that we’re all, it’s every man for themselves. So I don’t know if I can even trust my neighbor anymore. So that’s, that’s where we’ve, we pull away from nature. We’ve pull away from some really basic foundational philosophies of humanity.

And we’re right in the, we’re right at the sweet spot of that right now with all of our politics and all of the, all of this, this eccentric, this egocentrism that’s, that’s manifested everywhere from social media to you name it, where it’s, I’m the most important thing in the world and everything else is, doesn’t matter, and I’m gonna dominate and I’m gonna conquer it.

And [00:22:00] so everyone has that same mentality. And so. We’re missing each other and we’re missing the opportunity to actually dance with the life giving forces on this planet, which are the things that actually make us who we are and make us successful and make us happy, and, and, and all those things. I wanted to take a second to share about a new product I recently discovered, and you guys know, I just love trying new things, but when I get introduced to something I love, I really, really love it and it becomes, usually it becomes some kind of staple in my routine, and that is exactly what this product has become.

It is the new Jacob protein bar. And I am gonna share a couple of things I love about it most. But what I have to start out by saying is I don’t like protein bars. I think they’re disgusting. Most of them taste gross or are just filled with so many unnecessary or toxic ingredients that it’s not even worth eating.[00:23:00]

So I haven’t bought protein bars in years. There’s something I just kind of gave up on, but recently one of the amazing staff at Ascent where my new LO office location is introduced me to the Jacob Bars and their title is The World’s Cleanest Protein Bar. They have 20 grams of grass fed protein, no seed oils, nothing artificial.

Let me just read you the ingredient list for their chocolate version. It’s a grass fed protein blend, organic tapioca fiber, organic honey, grass fed beef, tallow, organic dates, organic almond butter, organic unsweetened chocolate, organic cacao powder, organic chocolate extract, sea salt. That’s it. And I absolutely love the taste.

They have three different flavors, chocolate, vanilla, that has some chocolate chips in it, and then a berry bar, and I actually love all three of them. [00:24:00] And these have quickly become a staple at some point in my day, because usually one of my meals in the day is a meal that I need to just have a quick protein bar, maybe have a protein shake.

So these, I now have a box of these in my office at all times for those days when I need, I didn’t get to have breakfast so I can just have a really, really clean, nutritious protein bar. Or same thing, I didn’t get to pack lunch, so I’m gonna have this protein bar. Uh, it has absolutely blown me away with how clean it is, but also how good they taste.

So check the link in the show notes to learn more about Jacob and try their bars. Yeah. Well, and, and then I’ll pivot back to regenerative farming in a second, but I think with life, nature is inherently unknown and uncontrollable. And so we have tried in order to make ourselves feel safe and at peace to dominate.

Right? I think, you know, that psychological discussion around [00:25:00] everything feels so uncontrollable. If I can control every possible element, that is what will make me feel safe and at peace, and I think that’s just a very narrow, sort of maybe unconscious, indirect approach we’ve taken, rather than life is uncontrollable and wild at how can we create children and people and humans that know how to live in that wildness and know how to be fluid and roll with the punches.

More resilient humans? Yes. Rather than more like controlling humans. Yes. Change, change, change is inevitable. Everywhere you look, there’s always change. And it’s so funny when humans get flustered with something changing and it’s mm-hmm. It’s sort of our, it’s just an example of our lack of ecoliteracy, which is everything is always changing Hmm.

Every day, every season. And the changes we can’t control and the changes are speeding up into uncontrollable [00:26:00] extremes. So, to your point, our, our design challenge is actually learning how to be resilient and to adapt and. And ultimately to have fun and flow with it, you know? And that’s, that’s where the magic is, not to control it, not to find insecurity with the thing that we can’t ever put our, put our grasp around.

I’m obviously speaking at the, at the systems level, but nonetheless, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I love what you’re saying where it’s sort of like, I’m afraid of change. So if my yard never changes, if my home never changes, if my city never changes, at least I can feel safe that there is something constant, there is something stable, and I think ultimately that is handicapping us and making us less resilient then we think it is.

So I think that’s, that’s a really fun, kind of esoteric conversation to have around the deeper, maybe like unconscious psychological roots of why we’re doing this outside of maybe the corporate America kind of. Financial roots [00:27:00] of why we’ve gone to such extremes in some of these things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, I, I, I resonate with what you’re saying. You know, and I’ve been fortunate to live my life and in that intersection of, of adapt adapting to the beautiful changes and, and, and finding, uh, a deeper relationship to nature. So I’m mm-hmm. Thankful to my, my grandparents that helped inspire that and my family, uh, my world experiences, et cetera.

Yeah. Well, it’s the perfect model. It’s the perfect model of change isn’t just inevitable, it’s necessary. And that, you know, the seasons represent this so perfectly for us. It’s not, oh, this could happen, this could not happen. It really shows you how necessary it is. I am, I’m thinking of the book, braiding Sweetgrass.

Mm. Yes. Where she just pinpoints so beautifully how everything is interconnected and just how beautiful to be able to turn to nature and go, what a wonderful [00:28:00] model for how change keeps us resilient and interconnected and alive and vital in all these different ways. So, yeah, keeps us human. There’s humility too, to be found with relationship with nature.

Mm-hmm. You know, and that’s, it’s not all, it’s not all roses, uh, and unicorns. It’s, but that’s, that’s, that’s I think, a healthy and authentic human experience. You know, versus a contrived and you know, more fabricated in reality. Mm-hmm. Yep. Okay. I would love to get a little bit deeper into some of the differences between conventional, organic, regenerative.

I think the audience kind of eats up that stuff, actually getting more specific. Sure. So you talked about a couple things. One is conventional farming, a lot of synthetic toxic chemicals are being used. They’re not rotating crops. Oftentimes they’re just raising one crop in mass. Can we talk a little bit more about the ripple effect of that, the ripple effect of [00:29:00] that on the environment, maybe on soil depletion?

I’ve, um, you know, I’ve heard people talk about, and I actually don’t know the science behind this, so you can speak to it. Um, organic foods have a higher nutrient density because the soil has, is more nutrient dense. Can you speak to some of that, a little bit of what the maybe negative or limiting ripple effect of conventional farming is on the land and then on the food itself that we’re consuming from it.

Often our, our agriculture, we’ve designed it as, as a very industrial and extractive enterprise. Um, and that is, I don’t wanna blame the farmer. There’s no farmer to be blamed there. It’s, it’s really the, this, I think a lot of the expectations of, of society that food should be cheap. Hmm. If we want cheap food, we have to cut corners and compromise.

Hmm. So if we compromise, then we leave it worse than we found it. [00:30:00] We take advantage of the future generations. We take advantage of. We, we basically go against the, uh, the, the, the general philosophy, which any farmer 50 years ago would’ve. Would’ve, uh, would’ve lived by, which is I wanna leave it better for my children, so it’s easier for them and more successful than, uh, and so we, we’ve, these technology, these are technologies that we inherited during the Green Revolution, which were this idea that, um, green Revolution in earnest came post World War ii.

Um, and we had mechanization, we had tanks that we turned into tractors. So we can move big amounts of soil around, we can prep our fields with plows and various other implements. And we can really, we can do a lot of good, we can do good and damage. Um, we can overwork the soil with this machinery. We [00:31:00] had, um, we had quite a bit of chemistry that, that was inherited post-World War ii, that the mm-hmm.

Fertilizers and the pesticides, uh, we didn’t really know what we didn’t know. And so those became, those went out at large and we, you know, back then in the fifties it was, we’re gonna build suburbs, everyone’s gonna have houses and we’re gonna feed the people. Technology was the thing. Everyone had a refrigerator.

We’re now eating food on cans. So it’s like we ran to the commodification, which was very, very different than the way it was just 10 years previous to that, especially in the war times with victory gardens where, um, and, and the years before that where farmers basically grew in, in, in diverse ingredients for their community, um mm-hmm.

For the land. They cared for the land with an integration of not just vegetables and fruits, but with animals. And that’s the family farm. Mm-hmm. So that’s a little bit of sort of the, the still at the high level orientation of how the industrial of agriculture, I think kind of where I, [00:32:00] I don’t like to, I.

I don’t wanna, um, I do believe that all farmers are, it’s such a, it’s such an incredible, um, endeavor. Endeavor that I just wanna spend a, send a lot of respect to all, all farmers that are endeavoring to have a relationship with land in order to feed the community. So I’d rather spend time talking a little bit about, um, us as, as eaters, try not, you know, not, uh, uh, the consumer word, um, is not always my favorite one, but us as eaters.

Yeah. Um, us as conscious consumers. Maybe I’ll use it that way. And if people need education on all of why industrial agriculture is bad and there’s so many great movies out there, you know, and I think Kiss the Ground does a good job and various other, um, films before that of Michael Pollan and other things.

And so there’s good literature out there. There’s good films out there for people to just, to get a, a 2 cents. I think mostly people hopefully have. I’ve opened that door. That, that, that there’s a spectrum of, of health to be found in, in the stewardship of the land [00:33:00] and the, and the quality of the ingredient.

But what, so I wanna just say that the, the thing that resonates the most with me right now is us as individuals. And some of us may feel more or less empowered with agency to actually make a difference in the world. But where we can make a difference is in how we spend our money. That’s, that’s the, that’s, that’s the most important thing, is that every day we get to, we get to stand up for our values or, or not, but I’m advocating that to the best of our ability as often as we can, that if we can just go out of convenience and towards culture, it’s gonna be more delicious and more fun.

And that means from a, from a food standpoint in general, and there’s a spectrum of, of ingredients to be found at a farmer’s market, but buying vegetables and fruits at a farmer’s market. Is the path towards that relationship that’s imperative for agriculture. Mm-hmm. That we’ve gotten [00:34:00] rid of the indu industry because we don’t need the Central Valley growing our vegetables and shipping them to Ralph’s.

We’re not, that’s not what we’re going to, that’s not, that’s not useful for us. If we have discernment and, and we have the luxury, I would invite us to go take that. Those resources, regardless of how much you are, the pricing is more or less always the same in vegetables. I just wanna say that you can get premium regenerative organic lettuce at the Ecology Center for $4 and a farmer’s market and get it for $4 and you can go to Ralph’s and get it for $4.

It just a matter, do you wanna get out of your normal convenience realms? Mm-hmm. Or do you wanna go out of the way and actually have a deeper relationship? So my, I don’t know if that resonates with you, but that’s not just in food, but that’s in all of our pursuits. If we. Could stop buying everything and anything from Amazon and any, any corporate big box that has no relationship to you and your community, and I can give you a couple statistics on, [00:35:00] on how that makes a difference Somehow, if we could just understand that is it, it isn’t only us in the ecology and the economy, it’s all of us.

And so if I needed something, if I needed a box of screws, not just food, you know, I’m sure I could go to Amazon and get a dirt sheep and they could deliver it to my door. I could probably go to Home Depot and spend 10 cents more. But you know what? I could also go to the, the, the hardware store that I have one in my town and there’s one in San Juan Capistrano that’s a family operation and spent 25 cents more and feel really good about it.

Mm-hmm. Me as an individual that believes that the power of of our choices is the difference that makes the difference. Yeah, to know that it’s gonna cost 10 to 20% more to invest in real people doing real things that you believe in rather than everything being an extraction just for you. So that’s, mm-hmm.

That’s my philosophy in life where, you know, the transcends food, but [00:36:00] food’s a fun way to poke at that and really bring that richness and health into you so you, it can be for you. Because what you’re getting from that $4 head of lettuce from the Ecology Center is you’re supporting a family farm operation.

You’re supporting a community farm that’s in your neighborhood. You’re, you’re getting the most delicious and most nutrient dense vegetables that you possibly can ever find. And you know the people that are growing them with love. And so you feel good about that. Completely. Well, and then, I mean, it’s, it’s rippling out indirect and indirect ways.

But to bring it back to, and I can’t help it because I’m a depth psychologist, I can’t help but go here and ask these questions. It’s, we do, we’ve sort of been taught, you know, productivity efficiency, productivity efficiency. What’s the quickest way I can get this? What’s the fastest way I can make a meal?

What’s the quickest way I can get a workout done? And I think indirectly, the messaging beneath that is, if you live your life to the utmost efficiency, then you’ll have all this time [00:37:00] to engage with people and be nourished. Mm-hmm. And I actually think it’s the complete reverse. It’s when I drive the extra 10 minutes to go to the ecology Center and buy all my groceries there and have that exchange with the person walk around the garden, you know, all of that, it, it is way less efficient.

And it is, it infinitely, exponentially more nourishing. In so many different ways, not just body, I think mind, body and spirit. And then that ripples out. I I leave there a more nourished person, so I move through my life, nourishing others more mind, body, and spirit energetically. And so, yes, I love what you’re, you know, I, I may be going even a layer deeper, which is this idea of hyper efficiency that we think is doing something or giving us something better, more time.

If I’m super efficient, I have more time. And that I don’t, I don’t see that ever being the case or leading to more nourishment. Well, and, and most importantly, it doesn’t lead to joy. Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] And what I’ve learned on this planet, um, in my experience here is that it’s a very finite reality. We have here, all of our, all of our realities are very small, you know, and by and large, our worldview may be larger than others.

Um. But our experience and our time here is very short. Um, and so my, one of the things that I’ve been fortunate enough to, to, um, to find is, is the ability to seek joy in a, in a very consistent, um, and, and, you know, every day is, is sort of my reality is like, you know, not, not just seeking bliss and, and kind of ignoring the pain.

It’s, it’s not just that, but it is that let’s do things that are fun and that bring us purpose and, and satisfaction. And that can, that can be inconvenient and that’s good, you know? Right. I, you know, and I think I have two children then they’re, um, six and nine. [00:39:00] And so it’s really, I I, I, I’m so close with them, but we presence, we use the language presence a lot.

You know, there’s a, there’s a heightened states of presence and then there’s absence, um. Mm-hmm. But to your point, is. We get, we get to choose our reality and, and the invitation to choose a reality that is consciously designed versus one that is an expectation that we think is gonna get us somewhere.

That gets us nowhere. You know, I think I have family members and I, God, I just, they just pulled the wrong card. I think this lifetime where they, and this may, may be, um, maybe, uh, maybe you can, people in this that are listening can resonate with this, that are doing things that they don’t love, you know?

But like, they’re doing it 40 to 60 hours a week, and that’s called work. And it’s, um, and what a shame, you know, that, that they haven’t yet. Everyone has so much magic to offer to the world. Everyone does. Everyone has really GA lot of gift. And it’s really understanding how do we [00:40:00] unlock the gift that we each individually have, which is unique to us, that could be of service to the community.

Mm-hmm. My, what, what is my dharma and how can I make that work? And also make a livelihood. And that livelihood may not be ex extra extractive seeking fortune and fame may be at odds with finding joy and satisfaction. Right. And so you look at the people you know, again, that are unhappy at work or you look at the people that are rich that have no substance and purpose and their loss too.

And that’s very common. That’s, that’s, that’s the, that’s, that’s what I see when I look outside of my bubble is I see a lot of people that don’t have purpose, that aren’t, that aren’t seeking these little n nuggets of going outside of their way to go to a farm stand, to have a relationship with someone.

And they know those people and they feel good about, and they bring that joy home and that lights them up for the, you know, they’re cooking a meal that lights ’em up. They’re like, wow, I’m part of a community. I’m part of something bigger than myself. [00:41:00] It’s not just me. And so I’m, I’m kind of throwing a bunch of different ideas out here, but those are general philosophies that, that, and, and, and.

Observations, inquiries, which is how do we get more aligned to our true purpose? That is, it is in alignment with joy. Something I use myself often and recommend to clients often too, is the Apollo neuro wearable device. This is a wearable device that helps regulate the nervous system, has been proven to increase.

HRV helps with sleep focus, and a couple of things I really love is it’s super inconspicuous, so it’s something you can have on all day at work, at home, wherever you’re going, and no one’s really gonna notice it. And I love that because a lot of the nervous system regulating devices out there, or supportive devices out there aren’t that practical.

You really have to do them at home or it’s not something you’d really want to be doing or using in public. But the [00:42:00] Apollo wearable is so inconspicuous and easy, and it uses vibration haptics that send safety and regulating signals to the nervous system to allow for more focus, better sleep, calmer state.

They have won so many awards for this product, and I feel like there’s a million more things I could say about it. So I’ll encourage you guys to check the show notes below for a link to learn more about the product. I also have a discount code below. Yeah. Uh, a thousand percent. I love, I love a philosophical conversation.

It’s so much fun. Yeah. It’s funny because whenever I, I’ve, for years and years and years, I’ve, I’ve had such a hard time being like. I don’t get it. There’s, there’s work time, there’s time we designate to work, and then there’s the rest of life. And I’ve just never been able to make sense of that. I’m like, but I don’t get it the whole day I’m living.

Right. How can it be work? You know, I do eight hours of work and [00:43:00] then I have four hours, four blank. Right. That has always been so hard for me, and I’ve really tried to reframe it in my mind of like, today for life, here’s what I’m gonna be doing. And in many, many ways, that has led me to, you know, the way that I, I have a, I have a practice, I work with cancer patients.

I could, I could see way more patients than what I see, but. Then I wouldn’t be living in a way that’s really aligned for me. I, I wake up and I do a slow hour walk every morning and I want time to, to meditate and have dinner with a friend and then see clients and then do a podcast and then maybe go on another hour walk.

And that’s not the most productive, efficient way, way to run my day. Yeah. But it is certainly the most nourishing, fulfilling, intentional way. And I think this deeper idea, and maybe we can, this is how we bring it back to the ecology Center, that there’s something about [00:44:00] that that actually does create the abundance we’re looking for.

We have this sort of, um, capitalist America is sort of like kind of, again, coming back to that efficiency. The more we extract, the more we do, do, do, do, do the more we get in return. And, and if you’re inefficient, you won’t get as much in return. And I have not found that to be true in the slightest. The more aligned and intentional I am, the abundance comes back infinitely more.

Yeah. That ma makes me think there’s a permaculture principle. Permaculture is, um, a design science of which I’ve been practicing for the last 25 years, which is designing humans and relationship to nature in a harmonious way. And that’s settlement. So that can be your house and your garden. It can be the ecology center scale.

It can be a village scale. It can be, we, we can think at all, all at the watershed scale and beyond, but there’s this principle called small scale [00:45:00] solutions. And it almost makes me think that success is found in, in the incremental and the day to day, not at the end of a lifetime. Mm-hmm. You know, which is to your, you.

It’s, you know what I mean? It’s like, it’s not, it’s not somewhere else. It’s not. Yes. When I, when I retire, it’s not, that’s not interesting. It’s right now, you know, and so how do we. How do we get, and that, that comes back to the conversation that we had about being uncomfortable and, and, and understanding that change is inevitable.

Those are all intertwined, which is understanding that how am I part of the ecology and how do I flow with it? And that’s that, that takes, uh, work and um, and takes getting out there. Yeah, completely. I think that’s a good segue into what I, you know, being a weekly visitor of the Ecology Center. I see how I feel when I’m there.

But you guys do so many community events, probably more than I’m even [00:46:00] aware of and probably more community outreach and engagement that I’m even aware of. And I would love to hear maybe from your kind of professional analytical perspective of what you guys have measured or just even from your personal perspective, what do you see that ripple effect being on the community, maybe even from when you started the Ecology Center?

What, you know, what was the community like and what have been some of the ripple effects you’ve seen? Yeah. You know, it’s 16 years now, and I think just at the high level, anecdotally, the Ecology Center has grown exponentially every season. So when we first started, you, we had a great group of, you know, maybe it was some hundreds of people that were tuning in and participating, um, and really taking these philosophies into action, which was transforming their backyards and being conscious consumers and participating in the community festivals and, and building, building relationship with, with community that way.[00:47:00]

So I think now, you know, we did, this weekend we had a strawberry festival, so we had over 500 families here. Um, as just one example of the things that are happening, which is that there are, we’ll have over a hundred thousand visitors this year. And I believe that they’re all coming here. And I, I give all the credit to the land.

Um, the land inspires us as the individuals that are the stewards of the land. But the land is, this is the land of infinite possibilities. So when you come here, your state changes form effect state. Mm-hmm. So you, you’re coming into a different ecology and you start to feel good and you start to feel optimism and hope.

And, and so we’ve tried to, to partner with those, those emotions and feelings and just bring them, obviously the surface with the ingredients that we grow and the offerings, the programs, the field trips, the, the cafe. We now have a peace dome where we’re doing yoga and meditation. Um, the farm dinners, you know, all, there’s a, there’s about 20 different events happening here every week.

So [00:48:00] we are building a culture center, um, where more and more people are coming in and taking the amount of this into the life that they can handle. And that may be just one basket of produce that may just be a, a donation to our, to become a member and support the movement. That may be taking it further.

But the good news is that this is just a long journey. There’s no destination, but we are, we are seeking community and culture and, and, and it is humbling and incredibly rewarding to see how the community is showing up and that the Ecology Center is rippling into the watershed. You know, there, there is awareness now, um, throughout the geography.

People ha know that there’s this reference point, there’s this, there’s this ecotopia out there that I can touch into when I need knowledge, when I need energy, when I need community, when I need, when I, and, and we’ll take them wherever they’re interested in taking ’em. But so I think that’s kind of where I look at it from, of [00:49:00] yeah, humility of just, wow, people are showing up and I.

And we’re having fun together. And so that, again, back to our conversation of joy, that, that, that more and more people are bringing that real time into their life. Yeah. Well I think there’s, there’s all the direct ways you guys are rippling out through events, through, you know, I, I just was at, um, the New River Street marketplace having dinner last night, and on the menu of one of the restaurants is the Ecology Center market salad.

Mm-hmm. So you’re rippling out into the community through providing fresh, organic produce to local restaurants. Yeah. Through the kids, you know, gardening classes, you have, I’m probably not using the right words, but all those direct ways. But then to your point, the way that I think to me honestly seems even more profound is the energetic ways where people are there and they are literally, I think this is getting into like quantum physics.

They’re absorbing. Those narratives of reciprocity and joy and fulfillment and alignment and on [00:50:00] some tiny microscopic, energetic level, I think their soul is like, whoa, that’s what this feels like. Yeah. Whoa, I forgot this existed. And it’s this little reminder is this little seed that then they go back to their home and they maybe feel that kind of dis-ease again, and they can start to go, oh, what does this look like?

To take what I felt there and start to create that here in my home with my family, with my maybe more local community, whatever that looks like. Yeah. You know, we use, I use the word abundance a lot. That’s my favorite word. And, um, you know, we’re really trying to model an abundant life, uh, you know, and design an abundant future.

Mm-hmm. And so that, that’s, that brings us that, just that feeling of abundance, you know, versus scarcity. So that’s the, that’s the, that’s the, some of the conversations we’ve had where. There’s scarcity in, in our agriculture, in, in how we steward our land. There’s scarcity in how we consume. There’s scarcity in how we relate to one another.

Mm-hmm. So [00:51:00] yeah, we’re gonna get trapped in that occasionally, but how do we transcend and come back to the abundant state, um, which is, you know, and not to be, to be communicated. That’s again, the, the core values are just caring for the earth. So to the best of our ability in all of our pursuits, we wanna care for the earth, which is to leave it better than we found.

We wanna care for the people because we’re all in this together, you know, and then we, and we wanna share our surpluses. We all have something to offer. Mm-hmm. Right? Some of us have extra resources, pay it forward, support a cause that you care about because they don’t have as much as you do. You might have lemons on your tree and you give, you know, that kind of idea.

Yeah. It’s just, just building the reciprocity to your point. Completely. Okay. Pivoting. I think this will be a fun way to close it out after that beautiful philosophical conversation. This is partly a selfish question ’cause I am weirdly super interested in logistics, but I’m also so inspired because even as I was listening to some past interviews you’ve done in preparation for today, I was like, holy [00:52:00] shit.

There is always another thing he is dreaming. You know, even beyond the Ecology Center, you do it, it seems like, or at least when I listened to those episodes, you were doing a lot of consulting for other farms and regenerative farms and places all over the world and. That was very inspiring to me. First of all, I was like, I wonder if, if, you know human design, if he’s a manifesting generator.

’cause you sound like one with how many different things you have going. But I think if I could boil it down to a simple question, it’s how do you, for you personally, but also the ecology center, how do you continue to grow and maintain alignment and reciprocity even for you as, as a person leading and guiding so many initiatives professionally, but also you have family, you have kids.

How do you continue to allow all these different parts of yourself to be expressed and kind of allowed to come out and play while making it sustainable for you? You know, this, this is all [00:53:00] energy giving for me. All of it. So I love, I love everything that I’m, I’m that, that the universe is out, you know, invited me to, to participate in.

And so, um, and how that, how that gets grounded, um. Is it, I have a very, that, that, that there, we have over a hundred employees here now. Incredible people we’ve recruited, just really special humans. Um, and then on top of that, we have a community that’s backing us. So, you know, we have, we’re well fed and that, that people are showing up to everything that we do.

Um, and they’re buying all of our vegetables and they’re eating in the cafe, and then their kids are coming to all the programs. And, and then on top of that, we have a philanthropic community that is sharing surplus. You know, we are a nonprofit and so we need the Phil philanthropy in order to grow the vision and build a movement.

And so to your point, I [00:54:00] think what you’re asking is how far can we take this? Um, essentially, you know, in terms of yes, manifestation is I. Is, uh, is something that I’m, I, I have a deep relationship with and what we’re trying to manifest here is a more integral, uh, geography connected to food in one another.

Um, it’s kind of, it’s that simple and it’s gonna take all of us rowing together, which is all of us going a little bit out of our way to figure out where we can support the butcher, the baker, and the kennels stick maker. Mm-hmm. You know, and so what we’re trying to do 30, 20, 30 years from now, what if Orange County, there wasn’t just this one hub as the command and demonstration of all of our values, uh, encapsulated in 28 acres, but there were dozens of small fa family farm operations with farm stands on them, and that was in your community.

And that’s where your kids learn to grow up through. Mm-hmm. We need more of that, and then we need on that end, systems [00:55:00] change. Yes, there are. About a dozen chefs, um, in Orange County that are dabbling in sourcing from the bio region, sourcing from family farmers. It’s a, still a very small number. And even those chefs are still just investing at a, at a fairly, uh, small rate.

Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s, that’s change. It takes time. You know, and so that’s, that’s, that’s, it’s a complex conversation, which is, um, is as inconvenient and it does cost, uh, there’s a little, there’s a premium cost to buy things from your neighborhood versus things that are grown as commodity from Mexico.

It just is what it is. Yeah. We can look at the big picture and know that as a, as an eater, um, you know, have discernment to know where we’re getting our vegetables, and then, then have discernment to, to support the restaurants that are, that are trying to take those meaningful steps forward. Then the ecology changes.

Our friend and mentor, Alice Waters did this in the Bay Area 50 [00:56:00] years ago. She planted a seed and built a restaurant that was gonna demonstrate really the relationship between the farmer and the eater. Mm-hmm. Many of you have heard of it. And it is ground zero for the farm to table movement. Um, and now 50 years later, the Bay Area is filled with hundreds, if not many more organic farmers, ranchers, wine makers, cheese makers, bakeries, you name it.

We don’t have that yet. Mm-hmm. Why not? Don’t we? We all want it. We all want to have that richness of culture and community. Food is the anchor. It always has been, always will be. We look back at our ancestors from Europe, um, and Europe by and large is a little bit of, they have both industrial realities and then they have a lot of these, uh, community and cultural realities around food as well.

So they’re, they’ve got a nice cross section of it. We’ve mostly gravitated towards the in industry and now we’re trying to go back. So that’s a little bit of our vision when we’re working to manifest. It takes all of us, um, [00:57:00] getting involved and participating and, and, um, supporting cottage industry and, and family businesses.

Yeah. I, I love that. Like I said, it’s very inspiring to me because I think I’m also someone who, um, I love to do a lot of different things. There’s a lot of parts of me that want to be expressed, which is why I see clients and I have a podcast and I’m getting a PhD, and there’s always something new. I’m want that, you know, another part of me that’s wanting to be expressed, and it’s, it’s admirable to go, here’s someone that’s, you’re, I feel like you’re very much a model and an expander for me of you can totally do it, and when you, when you manifest the right people, it becomes even easier when you move with intention and ethics and reciprocity, all these things we’ve been talking about, it all becomes possible, I think, in a way that’s very, very sustainable.

So I love that. How can people, anyone local in Orange County, I’ll make sure you guys are linked in the show notes too, [00:58:00] but how can they start to engage with you? Um, but then also kind of an extension of that question for anyone who’s outside of Orange County, what, where might they go? What might they do to find local farms, um, farmer’s markets, et cetera?

Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s pretty easy and I think you, you hit that on the nail. I mean, there’s, there are farmers’ markets now in most towns. Getting relationships to the farmer’s market is fun because then you start to have, you start to connect with different producers. You start to see it’s tap into the seasonality that it’s not cucumber season right now, in April, it’s actually broccolini and cauliflower season, you know, and so just that’s a big part of the calibration is, is really kind of stepping into more intention, more conscious orientation towards what we’re bringing into our bodies.

Um, so that comes back to the seasons. That comes back to the producers. Family, farmers always, always premium, in my opinion. Might as well. I think there’s a general awareness that if we invest a dollar with a, [00:59:00] someone, a business, like I said, a hardware store, a farmer or a bakery in our neighborhood, they’re gonna keep investing that money about 15 times throughout our neighborhood.

Mm-hmm. If we go and get convenient and get excited and, and a little over, a little over zealous, and you go spend that dollar with a corporation, um, a Target or a Walmart or whatever it is, uh, you know, basically their headquarters is somewhere else and other than the job that they’re creating, that’s a minimum wage job.

They’re taking all of that money and they’re taking it right back to their profit sharing of their mm-hmm. Of their share, their shareholders and in, its in an ex extraction industry. So, um, you know, wouldn’t it be great if we didn’t rely on these big producers, but by, but that’s a, that’s a challenging endeavor because then you drive around this, this, not even this geography, but this country, we’ve, it’s, we’ve.

Designed it so that it always looks the same. Yeah. The same 20 businesses over and over and over and over again. [01:00:00] Completely. That, that has, that’s of zero interest, um, for me. Mm-hmm. And so maybe that’s a question to, to leave with our, with our community here, which is where are some of, where are some family endeavors that could be supported and, and, and had a relationship to in our community that are not those 20 businesses that are everywhere and don’t have our values in mind.

Mm-hmm. Completely. Evan, this was phenomenal. Thank you so much. Yeah, right. I appreciate talking with you as well.