THE ACCRESCENT™ PODCAST EPISODE 192

[00:00:00] Hello, welcome back to the Accrescent Podcast. I’m your host, Leigh Ann Lindsey. Happy Monday everyone. This is such a fantastic conversation today on the podcast because I have been interested in learning more about plant medicine for years now, and just I think the pieces kind of all fell into place for this conversation to come together now.

And I think you guys know, for me, it’s always important that I’m finding practitioners or speakers who take a much more integrative, holistic approach and, and now as I pursue depth psychology, also take a more soulful, spiritual approach to the work they’re doing. And this conversation with Keelia was everything I could have hoped for and more on this topic.

Kely Ryan is the founder of Plant Allied Recovery, a community builder student of the plants and ceremonialist. After overcoming homelessness and addiction, she went back to school for social work to learn [00:01:00] to help others heal their trauma, and stumbled across research on mushrooms in her own search to heal from trauma.

She found the plant medicine path and studied integration going on to study under medicine carriers and work at retreat centers all over the world. Today, she bridges the gap for people in recovery from addiction and trauma to work with plant medicine in a safe, sacred, and intentional way, and recognize that they are their own best healer.

I was such a novice when it came to this topic. I really have not done any, any form of research into plant medicine. So I really needed Alea to walk me through what even what, what plants are even part of plant medicine when we’re talking about this. And so we talk about a number of different healing plants and, but what I loved about this is it was so much more than just, yeah, take this thing and have this benefit.

She really is approaching this, I would say, from a depth, [00:02:00] psychological perspective of what are these plants here to communicate with me? How can we, you know, me and the plant together kind of co-create healing. So in many ways it’s, it’s a very spiritual and philosophical conversation, but also bringing in these tones of reciprocity and how to use these.

Plant medicines in an intentional and sacred way, honoring the traditions that they came from. These are not new. Many of these are coming from ancient, ancient indigenous traditions and the importance of being able to understand and honor that and use these in a sacred, intentional way. So please enjoy this conversation with Keelia.

Keelia, welcome to the Accrescent Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. We were just chatting off air that I’m particularly interested in the topic of plant medicine because it is, uh, it is another kind of [00:03:00] modality or resource that I have not put any time or effort into understanding, but I’d love to be able to understand it better, to know when it might be the right time to refer clients to look into this, but also in a way that is, I.

Intentional and authentic and sacred, and I’m so excited to get your lens on that. But before we dive into all of that, let’s start with a little bit of your origin story. You know, what maybe led you to plant medicine, how you found it impactful for you. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much. And I’m so excited to dive into all of that as well.

Um, and yeah, so for me, I’m a, I’m a person in recovery and so what really led me to plant medicine is seeking everything that I possibly could to heal from trauma. Um, and. The only option left available to me was plant medicine. I tried absolutely everything before that. Um, and [00:04:00] just to sort of paint the picture, um, you know, I went from being a homeless heroin and meth addict, IV user to finding recovery through AA and then getting so stagnant in recovery and feeling like, okay, is this it for me?

Is this all that there is? Mm-hmm. Um, and being stagnant with my, my. Trauma healing really. I think the recovery piece I had taken care of, but the trauma healing was something I needed more for and EMDR and all of the holistic avenues I was searching, um, in like meditation retreats and mindfulness and everything I could find, um, nothing seemed to really touch the way that I felt about who I was from the trauma.

And, um, yeah, plant medicine was the last place I wanted to look, but once I looked there very, very quickly, things started to reorganize in my brain and I was able to really heal those things. And now I have the opportunity to help others, uh, heal, which is a [00:05:00] beautiful, yeah, beautiful full circle. Kind of in conjunction with that.

Yeah. Well I love that and I think it is something, something you’ll find is, I’m so nuanced in the way I approach this. I, I work with the unconscious mind and I think depth psychology is not, I think I know depth psychology is so spiritual and soul based and I kind of like to call it the holistic psychology ’cause it’s just looking at everything together and on a much deeper level.

But to that end. I think there’s no one end all be all. I, I do unconscious work. I work in somatics and nervous system and all these different things and, but what’s gonna be right for one person might not be the thing that sort of unlocks a lot for another, which is why I also love to collect information on every modality I possibly can to be able to go, I’m not an expert in this, but I understand enough of it to know this might be a really great resource for you.[00:06:00]

And so that’s why I’m so excited. It kind of sounds like that’s what plant medicine was for you. You had tried so many other resources and not that they maybe aren’t the perfect resource for someone else, but plant medicine was that big missing piece for you, it sounds like. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it’s really important.

Um, you know, I had come to plant medicine as a teenager. I discovered, um, psychedelics and at that time coming to plant medicine. This was before kind of my awakening. It wasn’t the right time and I wasn’t ready. And so on that same thread, you know, I think that such big spiritual healing modalities like plant medicine and some other really activating, you know, things that are out there.

They need to come not only at the right time, at the right time and in the right way, but like you need to be really ready to receive those things. And I wasn’t ready for the healing as a. Teenager until I came back as an adult to these same medicines, but in a totally different way. So for me, it was really about [00:07:00] changing my entire relationship to substances and helping to, uh, weave in the sacred into what I was doing so that I wasn’t coming and approaching these medicines, which were psychoactive and against sort of, uh, what AA teaches.

I had to come to them from a really, um, grounded place where I, yeah, reworked my entire relationship with them and really made sure that I was incorporating sacredness and, and ritual and all of the really good things that can support this further. But that’s gonna look different for each person. Yeah, that’s what I’m really excited to talk about that sacred piece a little bit.

I think especially because you just, things become trendy and there’s certain plant medicines that have become very trendy that I think the sacredness has maybe been taken out of them a little bit. So I’m excited to talk about that a little bit more. But I actually think a place, at least a place I need to start, because this is so new to me, is what even falls under the umbrella of plant medicine.

What. [00:08:00] Substances or plants or herbals are under that. ’cause for me, that is, I, I have no idea. Um, and I think, I imagine there’s some listeners too, if this is a totally new topic, might be like we’re saying plant medicine. What are we actually talking about? What, you know, does that encompass or can that encompass, I.

Yeah, totally. And I think that everyone’s approach to what plant medicines are right for them is going to be different to recognizing we’re all individual beings. And so some things might be appropriate for some people and not for others. Um, but really anything I, I’m, I’m using the term plant medicine because I feel like it is a, um, accessible term that most a lot of people understand.

But really, I look at these, these. You know, beings that exist in all plants as as beings and as teachers. And so plant teachers is another term that can be interchangeably weaved in there as well. Um, but really, I mean, plant medicines can be anything from tinctures and things that you work with. Um, on a more [00:09:00] herbalist level, you know, different, uh, medicines in that way to the more psychoactive medicines and psychedelic medicines like psilocybin mushrooms or amida.

Scarier mushrooms or, um, you know, different sacred brews from the, the jungle and the Amazon, um, such as ayahuasca, Nipah, um, also known as yhe. So there are all sorts of plants in the world and to cover really all of them I don’t think is even enough for an entire series on a podcast. Um, but uh, yeah, there are so many different plans that can be medicines.

But when I’m speaking about within my journey, um, is plant medicines, the psychoactive, psychedelic type, that is something that I have studied and learned about and traveled to the jungle and, and met teachers who have been stewarded. Stewarding these medicines and really, um, you know, allowing the spirit of the medicine to act as the healer for the person versus, um, you know, a person [00:10:00] doing that healing.

And I think that’s the differentiator when we say plant medicine is allowing this medicine to heal our bodies through that spiritual connection versus, um, you know, just taking a substance just, you know, like, I’m gonna take this microdose as a pill. Um, you know, incorporating in the sacred is kind of part of the medicine of plant medicines and plant teachers.

Yeah, I, I would imagine so. And I think it makes such a difference, not just in the way it’s consumed, but in the way it interacts with your body is looking at it in this sacred way and. Yeah. I just, I think I get that so deeply. I think depth psychology is very much in that same realm of, it’s not just like, let’s get in the mind and rip out all the repressed anger.

It’s what does it look like to tend to that part? What does it look like to, you know, converse with that part of me? It just, it’s a whole different approach. And I love what you’re saying about this. Where, where is a good place to start? ’cause I do wanna [00:11:00] talk a little bit, I think I wanna lay the foundation for just plant medicine in general and then start to go more into plant medicine, specifically in recovery.

And so maybe what we can even go into is on this piece of the sacred, what does it look like when we’re saying this? What does it look like to engage with and utilize plant medicine, sort of, um, flippantly and unintentionally versus using it in the really sacred way. Totally. Yeah. So let’s, let’s dissect that a little bit.

And I think it’s important to remember that there are different lineages to this, right? So there’s, there are the herbalists and people here that have been stewarding the earth. There are Native American traditions, there are all sorts of different traditions, um, where people are utilizing plant medicine in a sacred way.

But for what’s accessible to the everyday person, I think is really just incorporating, um, ritual and prayer in some way, uh, into [00:12:00] working with medicine. Um, and so there’s a really beautiful practice for any type of plant medicine. This could be a psychedelic type, this could be something as simple as working with the rose.

Um, you know, just adding rose petals to your teeth throughout the day. But there is a communication that can happen and we have to open ourselves up to receive it. Mm-hmm. And so just to give you some, um, you know. Uh, an idea of what this can look like or what it would look like in a more indigenous setting.

Um, you know, in the Amazon they do these things called plant DTAs, which is where you’re in isolation for multiple weeks and you are working with one plant and eating very simple foods throughout this entire time. You have no screens. You’re just in the jungle with a bug net, um, alone, and you’re there to communicate with these plants.

And so this is a really extreme way to develop that communication and develop that relationship with our plant teachers. But a more simple way to do this at home would really be to [00:13:00] take that time, remember to get rid of distractions. So maybe spending some intentional time, um, doing art or creating or doing something that you wouldn’t normally do to replace habits like scrolling or watching TV that sort of take you out of your essence.

You can. Practice this for a few weeks while working with one specific herb. It can be a psychoactive or a non-psychoactive herb. Um, and really start to see how, how is this medicine speaking to me? You know, through your dreams, through your journaling, um, through just conscious connection with the plant, through placing some of that plant on your altar, whatever ways that you want to really connect deeply with that plant.

That’s a good place that I would have someone start if they’re looking to build that bridge and work with these teachers in a different way. I feel like what I hear beneath that is the difference between this is an, you know, inanimate object that I am consuming to get something out of it, versus this is a [00:14:00] living thing that I am going to go into relationship with for a week or two weeks or a month.

And thinking of it in that way. And if we were to approach it in that way, it’s sort of like. You, you gave the example of Rose. Okay. I’m, I’m gonna hang out with Rose for a couple weeks and really allow Rose to be my mentor, my healer, and how does that change the way I interact with this thing? Rather than just like, you know what, I really want the benefits of Rose.

I’m gonna go buy some rose capsules and just pop those every morning with my morning breakfast. It’s, I am gonna be in relationship with this, this substance and this being for the next couple weeks and, and be wanting to like intentionally absorb information through it physically. But also I think, you know, in depth psychology, we would say through it kind of psychically and through the collective unconscious, what is Rose offering, communicating, sharing, et cetera.

Exactly. That I, [00:15:00] I love that, but I also love how, how practical that is. Right. I think we’ll talk more about u maybe using some of the more psychoactive substances. But what I love about this is we can use plant medicine daily without always needing, you know, a facilitator or a practitioner, and it can still be so intentional and so sacred just at home every day for the, the average person.

Absolutely. And you know, I really think that that is a part of my ethos and why this is such a powerful, um, tool for me and in my own healing. There are many practitioners out there, um, you know, who are serving medicine more of the psycho psychoactive types, but, um, there are many practitioners out there who are on that path and they’re, um, not fully in integrity and they’re, you know, causing harm.

And so it’s really important to be able to recognize that we are our own healers in this. And I think that that’s [00:16:00] what plants have really taught me, um, through both, you know, herbalism and also working with the, the psychoactive types of plants. Um, but it’s really important to, uh. Just recognize that we are in, in control of our healing.

We are our own best healers. And so when we can work with these plants as an ally to that healing, then we’re not alone in that and we’re not holding that alone. And so that’s really what I think is so powerful about these practices. Mm-hmm. Can you talk a little bit more, you, you spoke to this for a second, I should have asked this a few minutes ago.

When you were saying, um, within aa, utilizing psychoactive substances is pretty frowned upon, if not sort of forbidden. What, what drew you to it? What made you sort of take that leap? ’cause in listening, I was listening to a couple other podcasts you had done, and I think you said something pretty powerful, which is when I decided to, you know, engage with plant medicine, I lost that whole community.[00:17:00]

Yeah. And first of all, that’s huge. What. Courageous step to make, to follow your intuition, to follow those nudges despite these repercussions. But that, even that tells me even more that there was something there that was so aligned and nourishing for you that was worth that break. Yeah, totally. And so there, there are different, uh, even levels to the thinking with aa and it’s very, uh, dependent on where you live.

Uh, for example, within the United States, they’re very open to microdosing and things like that in California and that area. Um, but where I am in the Northeast, um, it, they’re not open to that at all. And so I actually was asked to step down from all my service positions. I was on a, you know, a, a chapter that was creating new sober homes for folks.

And, you know, I had to step down from that position and all of this. Um, and, you know, in certain areas, even working with tinctures, they will say, you know, don’t work with any tinctures. Um, if, you know, don’t work with, uh, Kaba [00:18:00] or some of these, uh, sort of. A little bit more impactful, but not, not so impactful, not so psychoactive that you’re gonna feel a difference.

Um, they say to stay away from those, you know. Um, and I think that for me, um, I struggled with chronic illness and I didn’t want to go to big pharma. I didn’t wanna go to the doctor for my solution. I had had, you know, in, in the past as a teenager, I was prescribed opiates without ever being told, you know, what the, the downsides to being prescribed opiates at such a young age was.

And so I tend to stay away from, from, I, like, I would much prefer to work with something more herbal and to make it into a spiritual practice is even better. So I took an herbalism course, which does not at all make me an herbalist. I think it’s a lifelong path. Um, but I took an herbalism course before, um, you know, I started to microdose and I, I stepped away from AA and made that transition.

[00:19:00] Um. And I found just that spiritual connection working with the medicines were so powerful. It, it felt like such a real, uh, visceral connection to the plants, uh, that I just felt a need to explore it deeper and wanted to see how far it could take me. And so, yeah, working with the other sort of master plant teachers has been super powerful and, and I’m, I’m so grateful for it.

But it definitely was a calling, and I think that’s something people talk about is hearing a call to some of those bigger, um, plant medicines. And it’s important to wait for that, for that call and to not just explore some of these things just to see what it’s like. You know, I think there’s, there’s a, a connection that happens.

Yeah. You, I mean, you just said something really interesting, which is I think I’ll even own that for myself. You hear about all these in, I’m, I have a cohort in my PhD program of individuals who are well-versed in this, and there’s a part of me that’s like. Okay, well, I just [00:20:00] wanna see what that’s about.

Let me try it. And, and that’s more of where it’s coming from rather than a deep, like, I am needing some deep opening with something and I’m feeling called to try this thing. And I, I like that you pointed that out because, you know, on the one hand, I, I do think we need to take the initiative to go, if I’m not finding the right resources for me, it’s my responsibility to go out and explore and see if I can find the ones.

But again, kind of bringing it back to that, like what you’re making me think of for myself is if and when I were to try a particular plant medicine, I think it would be with a very clear intention of, you know what, here’s this particular thing that I’m stuck on that I wanna work through. I’m gonna take that to this ceremony with the intention of, you know, working through that with this, with this medicine.

And just being even more intentional with it, rather than like, well, let’s just see what this is about. Totally. Yeah. And I, you know, I worked at different plant [00:21:00] medicine churches and retreat centers for many years providing integration. And the people that struggled to integrate the most were the ones who sort of came in, were like, yeah, I just wanted to try it.

And, you know, they tend to have a more challenging time too. Um, because that intention can be that anchor where it’s not comfortable to be in these spaces. It’s not, it’s not comfortable. It’s not, you know, fun. Um, it can be pleasurable and fun sometimes. Most of the time it’s not. And so to be in those spaces, if you don’t have, uh, a deep intention that you’re anchored into, you can feel really lost and just sort of like drift around in, in, in the, the collective unconscious space.

Um, and it can be really challenging. And so, yeah, I think it’s really important to have that call, to have a reason and not just go, um, just because. I wanted to take a second to share about a new product I recently [00:22:00] discovered, and you guys know I just love trying new things, but when I get introduced to something I love, I really, really love it and it becomes, usually it becomes some kind of staple in my routine, and that is exactly what this product has become.

It is the new Jacob protein bar. And I am gonna share a couple of things I love about it most. But what I have to start out by saying is I don’t like protein bars. I think they’re disgusting. Most of them taste gross or are just filled with so many unnecessary or toxic ingredients that it’s not even worth eating.

So I haven’t bought protein bars in years. There’s something I just kind of gave up on, but recently one of the amazing staff at Ascent where my new LO office location is introduced me to the Jacob Bars and their title is The World’s Cleanest Protein Bar. They have 20 grams of [00:23:00] grass fed protein, no seed oils, nothing artificial.

Let me just read you the ingredient list for their chocolate version. It’s a grass fed protein blend, organic tapioca fiber, organic honey, grass fed beef, tallow, organic dates, organic almond butter, organic unsweetened chocolate, organic cacao powder, organic chocolate extract, sea salt. That’s it. And I absolutely love the taste.

They have three different flavors, chocolate, vanilla, that has some chocolate chips in it, and then a berry bar, and I actually love all three of them. And these have quickly become a staple at some point in my day, because usually one of my meals in the day is a meal that I need to just have a quick protein bar, maybe have a protein shake.

So these, I now have a box of these in my office at all times for those days when I need, I didn’t get to have breakfast so I can just have a really, really [00:24:00] clean, nutritious protein bar. Or same thing, I didn’t get to pack lunch, so I’m gonna have this protein bar. Uh, it has absolutely blown me away with how clean it is, but also how good they taste.

So check the link in the show notes to learn more about Jacob and try their bars. Well, to that end, something that’s on my mind as a practitioner, but just also as someone you know, interested in your journey is, is there a time and a place where you, when you’re working with someone in recovery, is it sort of blanketly like this is great for everyone?

I think I already know the answer to this, but I wanna dive into it more. Anyone in recovery should try plant medicine? Or are you able to go, here’s, here’s that particular subgroup of people in recovery who this might be really powerful for, and that it’s not a blanket thing. It’s sort of like, you know what?

If this is sort of where you’re at and what you’re experiencing, then plant medicine might be a really supportive tool or resource. [00:25:00] Yeah, absolutely. It’s definitely not one size of fits all. And so much of, you know, recovery and mental health tries to make things into a one size, size fits all and put everyone into a box percent.

Yeah. And so, um, I think it’s really important when we’re reclaiming this, you know, new way of health. This, this very intuitive, I’m gonna listen to my body. I’m gonna be deeply connected and in control of my, you know, my entire healing journey. Um, with something like, like these medicines. Um, I think it’s really important for us to, to.

Remember that it, it, that’s the other party that is supporting us in this is like our own intuition and really checking in with ourselves. Um, particularly for people in recovery, a lot of people are really drawn to cannabis as a plant medicine, which can be such a powerful tool for people who have chronic pain.

Um, you know, for people that have, um, you know, [00:26:00] anxiety, there’s so many different ways that that medicine can help. But we have to be intentional even with that. And that is one right now that society often does not bring intentionality into it, but it can be such, such a powerful teacher and medicine.

When we’re bringing in that intention, bringing in ritual. We’re journaling. We’re getting into a sacred, um, embodiment practice like yoga or stretching or dancing. Um, it can be a really powerful plant, but it’s not for everyone. And particularly people in recovery. Some people have it. Work really, really well in their lives, and they come to Plant Ally recovery because they can’t talk about it in aa.

And then there are others where it’s really hard for them to not want to work with it around the clock. Um, and they can’t take that space. Mm-hmm. Because it requires spaciousness. Um, like we think about these plants and their characteristics often tell us a lot about what they are. So cannabis is like a [00:27:00] sticky plant.

And so if you work with her too much, then she gets sticky in your brain and slows you down. So it’s really important to be listening. Love that, and finding that balance. And so, um, you know, that’s a plant that can be, can be challenging for a lot of people. One of the trickiest ones to form a healthy relationship with for people in recovery.

It is possible. I have a great relationship with cannabis, but it’s not for everyone. I would say the more accessible, like if someone is like, I really wanna try something, is microdosing of any. Type, so that would be a sub perceptual dose. So ideally you won’t feel any effects at all. It’s something that happens over time by, um, you know, working in the default mode network of your brain and helping you to have that increased neuroplasticity so that you can change habits that were once really challenging to change.

And so that’s really accessible and something that I would say if someone feels a call to work with medicine to start with microdosing, build a relationship to the plant spirit in that way. You know, [00:28:00] you can microdose many different plants, most commonly and most accessible is often psilocybin. Um, but yeah, I would say that is one that, um, is really, really helpful and um, and that’s a great way to really learn how to build a relationship with that medicine and recognizing less is more.

Sometimes, you know, we don’t have to have these deep challenging experiences. We can also learn how to heal in that, in that gentle, um, microdose kind of practice way. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There’s so many sub-questions coming up with this. One is, to me, and this is just my perspective, if it was me interested in these, I, I wouldn’t feel comfortable just starting to experiment on my own.

Even with Microdosing, I feel like I would really want a, you know, sacred aligned practitioner to guide me through that, even if it was just microdosing. To be able to help curate that sacred space, help maybe have regular check-ins and guide me through it, [00:29:00] that that’s sort of what I would feel is, you know, even if this microdosing is so safe and subtle, finding someone who can really walk alongside you and guide you in that seems.

It seems like a good place to start. But to that end, a couple things I want to point out or, or get your feedback on. ’cause yeah, the difference between, it’s highlighting how broad plant medicine is. There’s, there’s microdosing where it’s just super subtle and gentle and these slow changes over time. And then there’s maybe these more intense activating experiences that are maybe more acute experiences that you go into much less often to facilitate deeper sort of metabolizing and healing.

But something I feel like you’re saying that I’m hearing in the undertones is people maybe need to approach that with this. It might not be this like lovely floating, beautiful experience. It could be incredibly activating and [00:30:00] dysregulating and bring up intense stuff. And in some ways that’s what’s meant to happen.

But if you don’t go into it with that mindset, it, it might be really jarring. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think it’s really important for people to recognize that with any of these psychoactive medicines, integration is almost more important than working with the medicines themselves. And integration starts with pre-integration starts with preparing for the experience, even microdosing to have some time to prepare for, you know, a month to three month journey where you’re going to be actively working on something.

You have to get your life set up in order to do that. And so, um. Yeah, I think that it is really important to have guidance, uh, and I feel like part of my mission here on Earth is to help people who are going to do it anyway, feel like they have, um, some good guidance. And so I actually have some free resources for any listeners.

Uh, for Microdosing specifically, I have a workbook that teaches you how [00:31:00] to set up, you know, a sacred space and antar and how to set habits for yourself and what to do on those days with a bunch of journaling prompts as well. And so anyone can, um, you know, reach out to me and access that. Um, I think it’s really important for us to remember that and to have some sort of guidance.

You know, I have teachers that I have learned a lot of these things from, from all across the world and it’s really important for me to go to those teachers when I get stuck. And so I think it is really helpful for us to not totally give our power away to the other people. ’cause there are a lot of people out there who are doing this work.

Who, yeah. Um. Claim to have answers that they don’t actually have. But I think it’s important to, to make sure that we have someone we can ask questions of and also practice that deep listening to my own intuition. And that’s, that’s a practice. It doesn’t come immediately. And so it’s important to, yeah, to take those journeys one step at a time.

For sure. And start with guidance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:32:00] So what do you feel like is, and I’m, I’m bringing nuance to this of course, but for people in recovery specifically, what do you feel like is when they’re engaging with the traditional supports like AA is maybe missing that plant medicine helps sort of bring to the table?

And of course this is acknowledging that this is not saying all AA groups across all of America are missing these pieces, but what do you feel like, you know, often that is what’s missing for them, that then plant medicine helps support. Yeah, so I think it’s important to, uh, to acknowledge here that actually with aa, a lot of the original AA members actually had their spiritual awakening while under the influence of the bead donna treatment, which was a psychoactive, psychedelic plant medicine.

Um, and so it’s really interesting because that’s the way in the 1930s that they treated all of these original members who wrote in the [00:33:00] big book of Alcoholics Anonymous about their spiritual awakenings. And um, and they had these big white light experiences right in the beginning of their recovery while they were under the influence of these plant medicines.

And today, you know, we don’t. Acknowledge that, and we say no, any psychoactive mind altering substance is not okay, and it’s abstinence based. Um, and so, yeah, that, that’s one thing I just wanted to mention. First of all, because I’m a big fan of aa, I think that, um, there’s a lot of things in the original literature that is so good.

You know, it’s very universal. It’s not, um, it’s open to all, it talks about, you know, doing your shadow work and looking within yourself and cleaning up your side of the street, making amends, being of service. Um, all of these things are great, but there is a social construct within communities that changes from place to place.

Um, I used to do a lot of service work where I put on conferences all across the [00:34:00] country. So I used to get to see the different AI cultures, um, and how they mm-hmm. How they were different. Uh, and you know, there are, there are some places that are doing a really great job. A lot of places are still like.

Saying things like, you know, uh, that there’s just one way. And I think that that’s really the black and white thinking is the thing that really gets in the way. Um, because everyone is different. And some people might require medically assisted, you know, harm reduction treatments like Suboxone, um, and some people might not.

And it’s not fair for someone to say, your recovery is wrong and my recovery is right. Um, and so I think that’s really the biggest thing. Also this concept of being powerless, uh, I think is another thing that I personally really struggled with. And I know a lot of people, um, in plant Alled recovery also have struggled with because, um.

You know, it, the idea behind that is that we’re powerless over our substance of choice. And so we have to [00:35:00] seek an a higher power, and we can’t trust ourselves. Like the message is that we can’t trust our addict mind. But there is a point where we can, there is a point where we can heal and we can learn how to trust ourselves again, and know when, uh, you know, know how to differentiate between our addict mind and our highest selves and be able to hear those messages.

And so, um, yeah, I just think that aa, it’s not trauma informed either. That’s a big, um, piece that I struggle with. Um, I think that it needs an update and unfortunately, um, you know, that I don’t think the update will come quickly enough with the way that the structure is set up. It’s so huge now that, um, you know, little tiny changes take years and years and years to make.

And I think that we’re just at a point where we need more expedited healing because how are we supposed to heal the planet if we can’t heal ourselves first, you know? And so, yeah, I think it’s all a part of that. Completely. Yeah. I think you said something so powerful that I wanna highlight, which is, again, I’m not familiar with AA really at all, and kind of the deeper [00:36:00] structures.

But this idea that the, it seems like the main narrative is you can’t trust yourself. You will never be able to trust yourself. So you always need to be kind of having like a strong arm on this part of yourself. And if this, you know, this was me in my practice, what I would say is, what part of me is that addict self?

Is that a fearful part? Is that an angry part? And what do I need to do to repair my relationship with that part? What does that part need to express? What are the limiting beliefs that part is holding onto? But to that end, a completely different narrative of repair can happen with that part rather than this is a part that needs to be exiled and caged forever.

Exactly. Yeah. And that, that’s such a huge missing piece and something that plant medicine can help us do, like pairing, uh, these psychoactive plants with, um, you know, internal family systems and all these other healing modalities that we [00:37:00] have, we can start to really take that apart and learn how to not just heal from the damage that was done during recovery.

And, you know, a lot of these plants also have physical healing capabilities, um, that are incredibly powerful. Um, amanita mascara, for example, can help to heal your, our brains, um, after a benzo addiction. Uh, and ABO can help reset our brains after an opiate addiction. And so we have these psychoactive plants that.

Are here and can physically help us with recovery. But then mentally with that additional work, the one thing I think is really important to note is that it’s not a magic bullet or a magic pill. You know, you work with plant medicine in that intentional way as we’ve been talking about, and you need to do that integration work, which might take outside support, it might take, you know, a community, um, it might take a lot more than what you’re able to do very quickly.

And so to [00:38:00] recognize this is another practice and a modality that takes time, um, is really important. Yeah. Can we lean in, uh, I meant to come back to the integration piece and what it actually was making me think of is even something like ketamine. I, I wanna do a deep dive interview on ketamine. ’cause I’m seeing, I’ve had some clients sort of on their own try it and really profound experiences.

But to that end, in doing a little bit of research on that, there are places that are just. Doing ketamine, no therapists, no one really there except like the staff who’s gonna inject the ketamine or do the IV and then they send you on your way and that’s it. And then there’s places that you know, have therapists.

You’re doing a session before, you’re doing a therapy session after. And that I think is what you’re speaking to of that integration. But can we lean into that more of why that is so important? Especially maybe when we’re doing more of these, like acute, I don’t know if you would call them, maybe journeys, not treatments.

Journeys, yeah, journeys. Okay. [00:39:00] But when you’re using them in an acute way, why that pre, but also that post-integration is so important. Yeah. So because you know, these experiences that we have, and just to share a few of the things that have happened to me so that you can kind of conceptualize like what integration can actually look like, it can be as simple as, you know, a message coming through, uh, during medicine.

I’m, I’m just thinking of a recent one For me, um, a message coming through during medicine was how, you know, I don’t drink enough water and don’t, I’m not hydrated. And so an active integration practice to that, um, for me was to buy a water bottle holder. So I didn’t have an excuse not to be hydrated, you know, so, um, that, that’s, that’s an example of like what, what integration can look like, but they’re so, they can get so deep and so nuanced.

You know, you can go into past lives with this work. You can go into, um, you know, reliving traumatic experiences. For me, that was a, a [00:40:00] piece of, uh, you know. Relived some of my worst trauma that I had blacked out and saw myself, uh, from above and was able to send love to my younger self, um, in this, in this psychedelic, psychedelic space.

Um, and let myself know that I was always there for myself and that I was always, you know, walking hand in hand in a protector. And in doing that, it reheal some of the patternings I had around for myself. It was, you know, uh, sex and intimacy. All of a sudden, those, those walls that were up were gone after this one experience because I had had the ability to almost go back in time and rewire, uh, myself from that experience.

And so, you know, these experiences can have these sort of light things happen, these really intense, uh, things happen. I’ve had conversations with people who have passed on and had grief healing, um, as a result. So it really depends on what, uh, it is that you’re working through and that’s gonna determine the integration.

[00:41:00] And what that looks like. Um, for me, I think that integration is really broken down into, you know, starting with the, the preparation phase, starting with clearing that times that you can get the best messages possible from the medicine. Um, really making sure that you’re doubling down on your practices and staying open to listen and to receive the messages.

And then the post, uh, ceremony and the post journey time, uh, that integration is really about, um, staying true to those practices. There are things that can help in modalities like breath work that can help you to remain connected to the spirit of the medicine in your, in your journey afterwards, um, and really take aligned action.

And so I boil integration down into applied and aligned action and learning how to live life as a ceremony because we didn’t. Come into this human experience to incarnate just to be in altered states all of the time. You know, we came into this experience to learn how to be good humans and walk [00:42:00] well on the earth.

And so, um, you know, when we boil integration into applied action, aligned action, um, and living life is a ceremony, I think that they’re always the best results there. Something I use myself often and recommend to clients often too, is the Apollo Neuro wearable device. This is a wearable device that helps regulate the nervous system, has been proven to increase.

HRV helps with sleep focus, and a couple of things I really love is. It’s super inconspicuous, so it’s something you can have on all day at work, at home, wherever you’re going, and no one’s really gonna notice it. And I love that because a lot of the nervous system regulating devices out there, or supportive devices out there aren’t that practical.

You really have to do them at home or it’s not something you’d really want to be doing or using in public. But the Apollo wearable is so [00:43:00] inconspicuous and easy and it uses vibration haptics that send safety and regulating signals to the nervous system to allow for more focus, better sleep. Calmer state.

They have won so many awards for this product and I feel like there’s a million more things I could say about it. So I’ll encourage you guys to check the show notes below for a link to learn more about the product. I also have a discount code below. Yeah, the imagery that’s coming to me as you’re talking is, you know, not integrating is sort of like if you go to this beautiful plant nursery and you buy a bunch of beautiful flower bushes and you take them home, but then you just leave them sitting on the table.

You never actually plant them in the ground and you’re kind of on this high. You’ve bought these beautiful flowers. They’re so gorgeous, they’re already bringing you so much joy. But then because you didn’t create space and were intentional, you just went on with life, and now they’re just [00:44:00] sitting there on the table and they slowly start to die.

They never got integrated so that they could then kind of continue to grow and blossom and bloom on their own. Exactly. Yeah, that is exactly what it’s like. I’ve heard it also be talked about like having open heart surgery or open brain surgery, you know that the medicine goes in and does this open heart surgery, and if you don’t do the work to really make sure that that heals the way that it needs to, then, you know, the, the healing won’t happen.

Um, and so, yeah, it really is the most important part of the, the deep, you know, um, psychedelic medicine work, but even for other types of spiritual experiences that can be activating and life shifting, I think an integration practice around them to allow those shifts and upgrades to continue, um, and stay with us is important.

Yeah, I think a hundred percent. It’s just like there, there’s so much, you know, wisdom and insight, but also the, the unconscious beliefs that are shifting when those things shift, the, the [00:45:00] foundation moves, which means everything on top of that moves too. And so being able to just create space, in my mind it’s like, gosh, yeah, a week, two weeks after that experience, maybe that looks something like journaling every day.

The small little shifts you’re noticing and, you know, observing, continuing to go back into dialogue with some of the things that came up. But yeah, this steady, like I might’ve had a massive epiphany during a certain plant medicine experience, but continuing to tend with and be in relation with that epiphany or that insight or that download.

Outside of that experience too, so that it really does sink in and become embodied versus just this sort of knowledge and insight that never actually gets integrated. Yeah, totally. I think it’s so, so important. So I want, I do wanna ask this question, acknowledging that there might not be a one size fits all answer, but I also find because you’ve been in this [00:46:00] space for some time now, and you might just start to see patterns or observe things, the question in my mind is.

For different types of particular addictions and recovery from particular addictions. Do you notice that there are specific plant medicines that tend to be a great starting point? You already mentioned a couple, but for example, you know, in what you’ve seen over the years, for someone who might be recovering from alcohol addiction, is there a particular plant medicine that you’re like, I do tend to see this one being a really great place to start, specifically for that?

And, and maybe not. Maybe you’re just like, it’s not really related to the substance they’re addicted to, it’s more about their personality. But that’s a question I wanted to ask. Yeah. Um, in, in my experience, it really depends on the person. Like I said, there are certain medicines that have been known to, you know, help more with specific addictions.

Um, a boa also known as Ibogaine, that’s the active [00:47:00] ingredient in it. But a boa, um, being one that can, you know. Reset the opiate receptors. Stop detox and withdrawal from, from heroin, opiates, and fentanyl. Um, and, you know, help people to have an experience, um, that is not also, once again, not comfortable.

Like, these aren’t always fun, especially for that type of thing. It’s not a fun journey. Um, uh. And that can be a really powerful one, but not everyone is called to that medicine. So it really depends on the person. Um, just to kind of go over, uh, you know, Amina mascara has been showing amazing things for alcohol and benzo withdrawal and for helping to reset the, the brain after a dependence.

And so once again, that’s a good one. But it depends. If you’re not called to that medicine, it might not be for you. It really, it really is so, so specific. I think psilocybin mushrooms are a really great place to start because, um, they are [00:48:00] really, um, so accessible. First of all, like easy to grow yourself, you know, you can have this practice be something entirely.

Um. On your own, uh, that you’re nurturing and, and creating that connection with on your own. Um, but also they’re safe too. They’re relatively safe. Relatively few contraindications, I think. Like, I’m not, I’m not gonna get this number right. So, but I think that in, it was like in the year 2022, like four people, uh, went into the hospital for psilocybin related, um, you know, emergencies, four people in the whole year in the us um, something like that.

And so, yeah, it’s, it’s important to recognize that, like, and those are all also for psychological, you know, issues and not for, for physical. So I think that that’s a really great starting place just because of how safe and accessible, uh, that medicine is. Um, but I think with everything, you know, you need a guide.

Like, I would not recommend with any of these things to just go. [00:49:00] Purchase and try enlist you’re microdosing. Um, that’s more accessible. But even then having some form of guidance, you know, really, uh, making sure that you are setting up a good practice for yourself and trying the smallest dose possible, um, to start, you know, and I, I usually do half of what’s recommended to start, um, just like starting there.

Hmm. Um, and so yeah, that can be incredibly healing. The medicine that I’ve worked with the most is Ayahuasca. Um, and that has been a really powerful one for me, um, for my healing. But there have been many medicines that I’ve worked with as well outside of that. Um. That have also just been little like pieces that have helped me along in my journey.

And I think that, um, you know, we are such dynamic people that sometimes it requires like multiple modalities. Like plant medicine alone wouldn’t be anything without, you know, the therapy I had done and the embodiment practices and all, everything else. It’s, it’s the full picture. It’s just a [00:50:00] tool within, um, our tool belt.

And so these different medicines can be thought of as just tools that we have and allies and teachers, um, that can support us. Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised kind of talking about plant medicine again as there, if we think of each plant as a person, as a wise, you know, healer, just like we have people in our lives who it’s like, oh, my mom is the one I go to for that.

You know, deep emotional support. And then my dad is the one I go to when I want, like, really good logistical insight. I could see plant medicine being the same way where it’s like the, the plant person of Ayahuasca, you know, his strong suit is supporting you in blank this way. And then the plant medicine of psilocybin, he, oh, he’s such a good one when you need this type of input and.

Um, yeah, kind of looking at it in that way too. There is actually, you know, in indigenous practices, the, the mushroom spirits are [00:51:00] known as the little children, you know, and they help us with our inner child and they’re known as the little children. Um, you know, in. The Mexican shamanism and then, you know, uh, their ayahuasca is known as the grandmother in many traditions, not in all of all of the indigenous traditions, but in many of them, you know, she’s the grandmother and, uh, Wachuma San Pedro is the grandfather.

And so we already sort of have this. This hierarchy, um, wi you know, within, within tradition. But it is, it is a lot that way. You know, um, ayahuasca, she’s stern with you. She’s like, she tells you what you need. She’s sweet and loves you as well, but is like a stern old grandmother, um, in her lessons. Um, and sometimes she puts you through the ringer and you’re like, all right, I just have to surrender, you know?

And, um, so yeah. So it, it’s really nice. I love that. Uh, two questions. I wanna, I do wanna ask about what it would look like in, in your ideal world, if someone was to start microdosing with something, what would it look like [00:52:00] to do that intentionally in terms of like a day practice, a week practice? Just so, just so we can leave with a really, a really practical template.

Not that it’s the end all be all, but at least a starting template that people can work from. And then I wanna talk more about plan Allied your. Your membership and what you’re offering there, what you’re doing there, how that’s supporting people. But if you could give us a little bit of a template, just if someone’s listening and they’re like, you know what?

I’m not quite ready to dive in deep to some of these bigger experiences. I wanna start with Microdosing. I wanna do it intentionally and with sacredness, but I have no idea what that looks like. What, what might that look like? Yeah. Um, so really I think that the, the Microdosing workbook, I highly recommend looking at it because this is more shown in diagrams and there’s a lot more information in it.

Um, and anyone can have that. Uh, if you reach out to me, I can send you a PDF to it. Um. And, uh, what I would really say is, first of all, you wanna pick the type [00:53:00] of protocol that you would want to work with. And so there are a few different options. Um, there’s the stats protocol, which is two days on, two to three days on and five days off.

Um, and that one can be really intense, but it’s best for reprogramming. And so if you are trying to change a really stubborn habit, then that would be a protocol that I’d recommend. There’s also the vitamins, which I think is great for beginners. And that’s one day where you microdose and then three days off, one day on, three days off.

And so you wanna make sure no matter what, that you’re not just taking these micro doses every day, that you’re really giving your brain that opportunity to integrate. Even though it’s sub perceptual, you wanna make sure that you’re giving yourself lots of spaciousness. Um, my favorite way to microdose is now that I have a little bit of a relationship is more intuitive.

So on days where I get to be more outside in nature, those are the days that I’ll microdose. You know, when I’m able to, um, have that intentional time for myself that I will those days and most days I don’t. Um, so that’s, [00:54:00] that’s the way that I, I like to microdose and I would say really making sure that you have a daily practice, that you’re saying prayers and communing with the, the mushrooms every single day.

Um, you’re asking, you know, in a, in a journal, you’re asking the mushrooms to speak through you and to you and show you what you need to. See, and just allowing your pen or pencil to let whatever comes through, come through. Um, and yeah, to really hold your intention, there’s lots of different ways that you can also, um, you know, help yourself stay true to that.

Just simple things like, um, you know, putting it in your awareness, having a sticky note right there next to your micro doses of what it is that you’re trying to change, you know, affirmations, there’s so many different ways. Um, but really, uh, that’s, that’s what I would start with is intention. Um, you know, bringing in that ritual of a prayer.

Um, and really, yeah, tuning in with your body and seeing what feels good and following a practice. Yeah, I think that’s a great starting point and then your PDF that I’m sure [00:55:00] people will be running to will be so, so helpful. I’ll make sure we’ve got whatever contact information needs to be in the show notes so people can reach out to you.

So tell us a little bit more about, is it Plant Allied Recovery? Is that the full name? Yes. Okay. Tell us about this. What are you doing here? Who is this for? Yeah, totally. So, um. Uh, to me it’s really important that people have this information. Um, there can, as I sort of briefly mentioned, there can be harm, uh, that can be caused in these spaces.

And people looking for healing are often going to untrained people. There’s not a lot of regulation in this space, uh, the plant medicine world. And so I think that it’s really important for that vital harm reduction to be out there to the people. And so I’ve created, um, a free course and also a free community for people in recovery from both addiction and trauma.

And so anyone who wants to join can join. We have weekly peer support meetings. Um, and also a, a full [00:56:00] private social network where people can connect and then learn, um, in, in there. And then I also have an integration, membership based, uh, healing course. So if you are interested in integrating from an experience and kind of going deeper, um, I have a membership program, uh, where you can do that and receive group coaching.

And then I also do a guide training. So that’s kind of like a combination of, um, psychedelic integration, co coaching, um, recovery coaching, and a sort of trip sitting course in there as well. I’ll tied in with a trauma-informed training, um, to help people who wanna support people in recovery, uh, to know how to do so, and to know how to do so well in a way that’s not gonna cause harm and is going to be supportive and put that person first.

Um, and so that, that’s what I’ve got going on and I would love for you to check any of those things out. I love that. So to clarify, there’s, there’s a free [00:57:00] membership that weeks, um, meets weekly online, I’d imagine, and then kind of that community element to it. But then if people want maybe more specific support and guidance, there’s the paid membership that, and, and can you say a little bit more of what that looks like?

Is it you’re, you’re actually guiding them through things or it’s more these people are kind of off in their own doing, doing different things, maybe even with different practitioners and then they come into this group to then discuss and integrate what’s coming up? Yeah, so it’s a, it’s a. 40 plus video, self-paced integration course that people can go through at their own time.

And then any questions that people have. Okay, we, we meet weekly and people can come ask me or, um, some weeks we have other guides who are doing it, but it’s usually me. Um, and, uh, you know, people can have their questions answered there. So that’s, that’s the membership program. So it’s group coaching, um, as well [00:58:00] as a course.

I love it. Anything else? Because, because I’m so new to this topic, anything else that we didn’t cover that you feel like, Ooh, I really want to make sure people know this or hear this, or kind of have it on their radar? Yeah, actually, um, one thing that I think is really important to include, uh, in this topic is a cultural appropriation.

Um, I think it’s really important to let people know too, that there are people who have been protecting these medicines for thousands of years and stewarding these medicines well. And that as sort of this psychedelic boom is happening and plant medicine boom is happening, um, that we just have to be mindful of, of that and to recognize and honor, um, in the best possible way, the traditions that these medicines came from.

And so. It’s important to remember some things are closed, you know, so serving certain medicines requires years and years and years of training and the blessing [00:59:00] of, um, indigenous practitioners, uh, in order to do so. And so I think that’s really important, and I think it’s important to remember sourcing of these things too, because even, you know, purchasing these plant medicines, you know, we go to Amazon and we get them from these mega companies and they’re not following good environmental practices.

So I think it’s just important always to, um, try to also honor the earth in this, like as a way to give back to Mama Earth when you’re looking for different plants and sourcing, um, to go to the right places to look locally first and see if that, um, and see if that is something that is available to you.

Um, so. Those are the two things that I would say is be really mindful of your sourcing and also, uh, honoring and respecting the lineages that these medicines came from too. First, there’s two, well, there’s a comment and then two questions that brings up, and then I promise I’ll land [01:00:00] this plane and get you out of here.

One is I think this idea of reciprocity and it’s making me think of, um, Robin Kim’s book, braiding Sweetgrass, and just this idea of reciprocity and not just taking even in the sense of like this, this entity, this medicine is giving. I am coming to it and asking for something. What am I giving in return?

And what I might give in return is the intentionality around where I source that and how I use it and how I honor the indigenous cultures that comes from. Absolutely. And so engaging in reciprocity in all ways. But the two questions that brings up for me. One is, and again, I know there’s so much nuance, it’s hard to just answer these outright, but when it comes to sourcing and as someone who knows nothing about this, when it comes to sourcing, are there some very specific companies or brands that you can suggest right off the bat?

Or is it more like, there’s lots of places you can get it. Here’s what I [01:01:00] suggest you look for. And then kind of the same question when it comes to working with practitioners for someone who, um, I mean, of course get inside your membership ’cause then they can ask you all these questions too. But for someone who’s like, I really wanna find a practitioner to support me with.

Ayahuasca or psilocybin, you know, what, what should I look for in, in how they’re running it and how they’re facilitating it. Are there some really clear red flags that you’re like, if this is kind of what you’re seeing, maybe steer clear. Yeah. So, um, those are really great questions. Um, the first. The first question, uh, you asked about sourcing and are there some good things to look for?

And I would suggest to first look locally, especially if you’re looking for a non-psychoactive plant medicine or plant ally. Um, if you look, you know, locally, not only are you supporting a local herbalist, which is amazing, but also, um, your local flora and you know, back the bacteria living in your [01:02:00] environment.

The plants react to that. And so the, the most medicinally potent plant for you is going to be the one that grows in your backyard or near you. Um, and so that’s what I would say to that in terms of, um, you know, there are a lot of things out there right now that say microdosing, uh, available online that you can find.

Um, and a lot of them are not good. Um, a lot of them. Have, um, what’s called four A-C-O-D-M-T, which is, uh, something that’s supposed to mimic psilocybin or psilocin. Um, and so it’s important to, to really be careful with those sort of like the gas station microdose gummies. If it says like, magic mushrooms and you can buy it somewhere, like it seems too, could be true.

It is. It’s some sort of unresearched thing and it’s causing a lot of harm. And so, um, I have a whole guide on, on sourcing within my program and, and how to do that and I think that would be the best place [01:03:00] to look for for that. Um, because yeah, it can be really challenging and you just wanna make sure that you are protecting yourself in all of this because there are a lot of bad actors in this very unregulated space.

And it’s challenging because people looking for healing, um, you know, don’t need to have that kind of roadblock. Pop up in front of them. So that’s what I would suggest. I also would say stay away from in general, like gummies or anything where you can’t tell, like what’s in it to go for whole mushrooms if you’re buying them somewhere.

Um, mm-hmm. And in terms of the, the practitioner’s thing, um, I also have a whole, a whole course on vetting your medicine carrier. Um, but the, to sum it up, I think that the most important aspects, um, and that’s all free too, by the way, that is part of the free course. If you wanna access that and look into it, I, I highly recommend it.

Um, the number one thing that I would say is to not trust reviews. People can have really positive experiences. [01:04:00] Um, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a safe space. So if you’re wanting to sit somewhere, um, what I would do is do some deep research on a public forum, such as Reddit to see, um, because there, you’re gonna hear, um, in those sort of anonymous spaces, you’re gonna hear any drama that’s going on in the background.

And if there’s any sort of red flags, I would steer clear. Um, I also think different practitioners are better for different people. And so, you know, while some people might do what I do, which is travel to the jungle, to work with, uh, medicine carriers, they’re not trauma informed over there. Um, you know, and so it’s, it’s not going to be the best place for a newcomer to go, even if it’s the most authentic experience.

Um, and so, yeah, I think it’s important for people to decide what type of container will make them feel safe. Um, for some people it’s having, you know, someone there who’s speaking. For some people it’s no speaking. And so there’s a, I have a guide that kind of can help you determine that. Um. [01:05:00] But I would say the number one thing would be to look on Reddit and make sure that you really take the time to deeply research a person before you sit with, because um, yeah, a lot of harm can be caused in these spaces and sometimes it’s unintentional too.

It’s just people without enough experience. And I’ve witnessed that happen quite a bit. Um, and so yeah, it’s really important for me to share that and help prevent that from continuing to happen. Yeah, I feel like for me, the biggest takeaway is just this is so nuanced and bio individual. And so more than anything, having that.

That kind of like touchpoint person, that practitioner like yourself that they can go to and say, Hey, Keelia, here’s what I’m thinking about. What do you think about this? And be able to kind of have you as that touchpoint to bounce things off of, I think is so, so important. So thank you so much, Keelia. This was phenomenal.

I, I knew I wanted to have someone on to talk about plant medicine, but from this sacred, reciprocal, [01:06:00] intentional, authentic place and I feel like you were the perfect guest for that. So thank you so much. Yeah, you’re so welcome. And thank you so much for having me on and, um, I loved all of the tangents that we went through and, um, yeah, super, super grateful.

So thank you.