THE ACCRESCENT™ PODCAST EPISODE 204

[00:00:00] Hello, happy Monday. Welcome back to the Accrescent Podcast. I’m your host, Leigh Ann Lindsey. Just a reminder that if you haven’t checked out my new free guided meditation playlist, the link is down below in the show notes. I created this playlist to help individuals who might be in the middle of a current cancer or chronic illness diagnosis.

Maybe you just received a diagnosis, maybe you’re in the thick of one. But this guided meditation playlist is meant to help you attune to the inner turbulence, not bypass it, but also attune to it in a way that you’re gonna be able to help yourself actually metabolize the heavy emotions, the confusion, the overwhelm.

The fear, settle your system and hopefully be able to experience more peace, calm, and even clarity in what decisions might be right for you. So check the show [00:01:00] notes below for a link to access the free guided meditation playlist onto today’s guest, Natalie Samson. Natalie is a dedicated board certified genetic counselor devoted to transforming healthcare through personalized, integrative, and preventative approaches.

She obtained her master’s degree in human genetics and genetic counseling, as well as an integrative health coach certification. She established her own practice, golden Genetics, to introduce an integrative approach to genetic counseling and testing, combining it with nutrition and nutrigenomics. She focuses on cancer, neurology, and nutrigenomics, and her aim is to provide unparalleled personalized care and genetic counseling and testing.

I was introduced to Natalie through Heather and Danielle over at Ascent Adaptation where my office is, and both Heather Icker, the founder of Ascent and Danielle Palmer, one of my good, good practitioner friends who also [00:02:00] practices inside Ascent had done genetic testing with Natalie and had such amazing things to say just about their experience with her, but also how impactful the information was.

And I have to say, I feel like I had written off genetic testing, and Natalie and I talk about this because I think the conventional approach to genetic testing is. Pretty binary. And in my personal experience not that helpful in terms of actually equipping you to be able to make really powerful changes outside of just doing additional screening each year.

And so I, after this conversation with Natalie, I am so excited to do testing with her and go through that. Maybe if she’s open to it, it’s even something we could share on the podcast. Um, and she just really made such a powerful case for how genetic testing in this integrative comprehensive way [00:03:00] can really be such a game changer.

And I was asking her questions about, for someone who doesn’t have a diagnosis but just wants to continue upleveling their health, focus on longevity, how can her genetic testing be supportive of them? And so we talk on that for a good bit. But then we talk really specifically as well about foreign individual who is.

Experiencing cancer, experiencing a chronic illness, how can genetic testing be a game changer in their treatment protocols? So this was everything and more. I, like I said, I’m so impressed with Natalie, her professionalism, her expertise, her kindness, her empathy, and I think you guys are gonna love her. So please enjoy Natalie Samson.

Well, Natalie, welcome to the Accrescent Podcast. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to, to be here. We were talking off air, but so the audience knows you have, actually, you’re right here in Orange County, you’ve [00:04:00] been to Ascent where my offices, where all of us are kind of collaborating together.

And I heard about you through Danielle and Heather who’ve both done genetic testing with you and were absolutely raving about it. It has been such a game changer for them. And so I was like, okay, we gotta get this girl on. I gotta see what she’s about. I love that. So I’m, I’m really, really excited. It’s really fun to get to interview someone kind of like in our close personal network.

Totally. Um, who’s also local, but can you walk us through, I always love starting with a little bit of an origin story, so can you walk us through how did you get into genetic counseling? In listening to one of your previous podcasts you had done, you also talked a bit about your specialty in this space, but also how you used to work kind of in a hospital or in a conventional setting, and what ultimately took you to bringing your own practice.

So there’s like five questions in one there. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, totally. Well, I feel like this question, [00:05:00] you know, is always, it’s always hard for me to answer straightforward because I feel like there were so many circumstances and people in my life leading up to it, to that influenced that as I’m sure, you know, all of us can relate to.

Um, but I feel like the biggest thing was, you know, I went, I, I fell in love with genetics and learned about genetic counseling as a profession in my undergrad and I was like, oh my God, this is the way to understand the human body from the most micro scale we can get. You know? And that fascinated me. And so, um, after going into to, uh, you know, in my grad school, I realized that I loved working with cancer patients.

I really liked working with cancer patients on their genetics because that specialty specifically really allowed us to have knowledge ahead of time before symptoms appear and then be proactive and preventative about it. So I was really drawn to going into cancer originally. Um, and so that led me to work at a hospital in oncology.

And then at that time too, I actually was tasked with starting [00:06:00] the Alzheimer’s genetics department at the hospital. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah. Which was, uh, not expected, but similar with Alzheimer’s, I realized, you know, there’s so much potential to be proactive and preventative when we understand risk. So when I was working at the hospital, I had always been someone who was really, who had found, um, healing my own healing through integrative care and holistic care.

Um, and so when I was working at the hospital, I felt like this kind of disconnect from that world, and I noticed that. We weren’t actually treating patients from a preventative proactive model. We were treating patients in more of a reactive model where we would mm-hmm. Mostly all my patients were diagnosed already, but then I had, you know, the ability to then test their family members.

And that’s where I was like, why aren’t we seeing people before they’re diagnosed? And, you know, really using the power of genetics in that way. Um, and [00:07:00] then at the same time, you know, my father actually was personally battling, um, and still is battling cancer. So I’ve seen firsthand, you know, just as a daughter, um, what it’s like for, for someone to go through oncology in more of the conventional setting.

And, and I was kind of mind blown with how no one was talking about nutrition or lifestyle on not only risk, but also during treatment. And so all of that kind of led me to exploring. More pieces of genetics such as nutrigenomics and fun functional genomics, and really wanting to lean more into not only the proactive and preventative side, but also like kind of the functional, personalized side.

Um, and I just, I felt like, uh, you know, it was so hard of being at the hospital with kind of that restriction on not being able to practice that way. So that’s what ultimately led me to, to start my own practice, to kind of bring that integrative, holistic approach to the genetic counseling and testing world.

Yeah. I’ll share a little of my personal experience. I was [00:08:00] diagnosed with stage zero breast cancer in 2020. Okay. At 25. And like, to be totally honest, I, I feel like I kind of had written off genetic testing because I just was like, this really, what is this really telling me? It’s not telling me that at that time they had done genetic testing and I.

Had a mutation of the ATM gene. Yeah. None of the BRCA, but the ATM gene. Yeah. And, but this is what I’m so excited to talk to you about is how is it different? Because my experience with that conventional doctor, was he literally at 25, I was 25, told me you have the ATM gene. This is worse than the BRCA gene.

You really should consider a preventative double mastectomy. Oh, no, that’s, that was his solution too. You have this gene, here’s what you can do to be preventative. And I just at that point was like, this doesn’t resonate with me at all. If this is what genetic testing is, I, I’m not on board. I don’t think it’s that helpful.

But in listening [00:09:00] to, you know, Danielle and Heather’s experience with you and some of the other interviews you’ve done, you are doing something completely different. But you talked about this, and maybe we could touch on this for a second, of that difference between, um. Take taking it a level, A level deeper, right?

In the conventional medicine world, genetic testing is used in that way to push mm-hmm. You know, a few very, very specific things. And there’s actually so much more we can be doing with that. Totally. Yeah. And I feel like, um, it’s so hard to hear about your experience, but it is so common and, you know, I think unfortunately a lot of people have kind of that, that experience when they’re introduced to genetic testing, especially, you know, when done from someone who maybe isn’t a genetic counselor.

But even just being in the traditional space, a lot of times the options are really screening surgeries or pharmaceuticals. And like you said, there’s so much more. I, I do, um, do, I actually [00:10:00] do test for the cancer genes like ATM and brca, but I also test for, you know, the functional genomics alongside of it.

And so I always like to explain to my patients too, you know, when we’re looking at cancer genetics. I like to explain what the, I always tell my patients like, really we need to understand what the gene is doing in the body. And then that helps us understand how can we support that. And so the cancer genes, they actually are in charge of protecting us against cancer.

And so if someone has a mutation or a change in one copy of one of those genes, it just means that they might have less protection against cancer. And so, you know, some, like we don’t always have to jump to surgery. There’s so much we can do with that risk to protect us against cancer. And so that’s my favorite thing is, like you said, I wanted to understand, you know, without having to, to talk about just those limited options for people.

Um, you know, what else can we do? And so functional genomics is a way that we can look at, um, your [00:11:00] DNA and. In a different light, and we look at things like cellular pathways, so that’s like oxidative stress, detoxification, methylation, histamine, uh, inflammation, et cetera. And then we, you know, so many other pathways.

But those pathways spec specifically I love to look at with, with when we’re assessing risk of cancer. Because if someone has at high chance of having oxidative stress, you know, maybe their body can’t handle oxidative stress as much, then we can be really targeted on, okay, so, you know, potentially their risk could be coming from.

Ox state of stress, how can we reduce that or, you know, help, help, um, the body handle, you know, r oss. And so that would be diet wise, you know, lifestyle. So can we use, for example, can we reduce pro oxidizing things out of the environment? Can we, um, look into getting more antioxidants in your daily routine and then, you know, potentially looking into supplementation like coq 10 or you know, what’s offered at a cent for reduction of oxidative stress.

So it’s, I think what I [00:12:00] really want people to feel is empowered that they have, you know, that they have, like of course, I’m not saying anything is 100% preventable, but there is so much. That we can influence risk-wise. And so before, you know, someone’s feel, no one should ever feel pressured to do surgery, for example.

Um, and so, you know, before like jumping to something ser like so invasive, if someone, you know, is not wanting to do that, I always wanna help people understand there’s so much you can do in your environment and your lifestyle, you know, and, and that it’s not, it’s not something that we should fear, it’s something that we can use to our advantage to personalize that approach.

Yeah, the, I wanna get deeper into all of these different snippets. I do think though, starting with, maybe we can start with a really basic introduction to Genes. Totally. What is it? And then bringing in this layer, you know, briefly of epigenetics [00:13:00] though, how it’s not just. Well, actually I’ll ask the question.

Is it, I have the ATM gene and other people don’t, or is a more appropriate way to say it? Everyone has an ATM gene. I have a mutation of that gene that could lead to something. Exactly. Yeah. And so the way that it works is basically everyone has two copies of each gene. We get one from her mom and one from her dad.

And these genes have these letters on ’em that act like instructions for our bodies to do something. Um, just to back up to basically inside our cells, we have these structures called chromosomes. And if we stretch out the DNA material inside the chromosomes and segment certain parts, that’s what we call genes.

So we all have, you know, we actually all have, um, you know, these genes. So for example, like you said, everyone has an ATM gene. And so what happens is sometimes people are born with changes in those. In those letters on that gene that can cause the gene not to work as well. [00:14:00] There are, I always like to say, everyone has changes in genes.

No one has a perfect genome. Right, exactly. So, so I always, I always say that to people because you know, it’s, some people have this, some people have that, and so it’s like, how can we work with what changes we can identify through genetic testing? And so, and then the other thing I always like to say is that sometimes changes can occur through human diversity.

And so when we’re doing genetic testing for health, we are looking for changes that, um, do impact the gene function. And so, like you mentioned, it’s, it’s a common misconception that people think, oh, you know, you have the gene or you don’t, but it’s actually, do you have a misspelling or a change in one copy or both of a certain gene that, you know, can, can lead to implications.

And so that’s, um, that’s the information we use. I have done so much research over the years into different nervous system tools, techniques, modalities, and honestly, the Apollo Neuro wearable is the one that I [00:15:00] come back to again and again. It’s powerful, practical, and so easy to integrate into everyday life.

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And it’s something that I recommend to clients all the time because it’s so gentle. Non-invasive is backed by science and is so, so accessible. Click the link in the show notes below and you’ll get $60 off your Apollo or use discount code TheAccrescent for $60 off. You gave a great analogy that genes are like instruction manuals, I think is what you said.

Exactly. Yeah. And so the body or our cells, like when it comes across that gene, it’s reading the instruction manual and then acting accordingly. So. Let’s say for example, maybe we use the ATM mutation. How would the, how would the instruction manual of maybe a normal ATM gene be different than a mutated ATM gene?

And how is that then affecting what’s happening? Yeah, exactly. So because we have two [00:17:00] copies of each gene, um, you have one copy that’s reading appropriately of ATM. So that’s the other thing I always like to say with cancer mutations is that’s also. A big reason they’re not diagnostic. ’cause we have this other copy working for us.

Right, right. So it’s that, that other copy. So I always like to say like, if we’re, if we’re, you know, pretending our, our chromosomes are chapters in a book and you know, each sentence is a gene. It would be like as if you’re reading a book and the sentence maybe is reversed or there’s a word deleted or there’s a duplicated word and the body kind of gets confused on how to interpret that sentence.

And so for the most part, the body kind of actually doesn’t pay attention to it. It shuts it off. And so it only reads the other copy that the sentence structure’s normal. Mm-hmm. And so that’s what we call, you know, mutation. Sometimes, you know, these, these changes in the sentence structure, for example, or in the gene are more or less impactful.

So that’s something too is that. Sometimes there’s just a, [00:18:00] a, a word that has one letter change and that is maybe less impactful than, you know, a sentence that has multiple words deleted. And so we always pay attention to, to what the changes of the gene as well and how that’s impacting the body. Okay. And that meaning.

I could have a mutation of my ATM, the person next to me could also have a mutation of their ATM, but they could be completely different mutations. Exactly. And, and that’s actually super important because, um, I’ve actually, you know, I’ve definitely worked with patients who have maybe worked with, um, you know, others that order their tests and didn’t know how to interpret genetics.

And so the, the mutation and the change difference of the gene actually has implications on, you know, risk percentage, but also like how to manage it. And so, yeah, so important to know the actual like change in spelling of the gene that you have, not just assuming, you know, I have this, you know, mutation, so it’s the same as everyone.

Yeah. [00:19:00] And that’s what you guys can see is like the specificity of exactly what that looks like. Yeah. The, the silly analogy that’s coming to me right now, it, this may not be re if it’s a completely wrong analogy, just tell me. But it’s sort of like if you, if you have an ATM, if you have a mutation of your ATM gene and it’s a protective gene, so let’s say originally when that that healthy functioning gene happens when there’s cancer cells, your body’s like, I’m gonna send a hundred little armies to go fight the cancer, but my mutation of the gene, the code, the code is written differently or the instructions are written differently so that when there’s a cancer cell, my body only sends 90 army guys to go fight that cancer.

Someone else’s ATM mutation might be my guy. My body only sends 10 soldiers to go fight the cancer. And I think that’s kind of just representing, like you could have a mutation, but it’s still not really that severe or threatening of a mutation. Exactly. And, and so that’s Yeah, [00:20:00] exactly the point. And then, you know, I think that what, what we love to do too in the practice is, um, you know, with that information, can we one, you know, help you, um, to not only, so like there’s kind of two pieces of it with cancers.

One, when you have a mutation, okay, we definitely know cancer, you know, caught early is better than cancer caught late, like you were saying, um, with stage zero. So, um, you know, we wanna be proactive in, in figuring out what, what feels best for you in, in the ways that we can be proactive there. But then the other piece that’s like never discussed in conventional medicine is, well, how can we prevent the cancer cells from, from happening in the first place?

Or make an environment so that they don’t continue to to correct, you know, replicate. And so that’s, I think where, you know, we can get, um, even more precise. And so what I love, and I, you mentioned this earlier with epigenetics and so. With epigenetics, I think, you know, this is kind of, [00:21:00] it’s a hot topic and I think there, there is sometimes some misinformation about it.

Um, but in general, you know, I think people either think it’s like way nature or way nurture and it’s mm-hmm. It’s usually always a mix of both. And we really need to understand, you know, what the gene is and like what genes or genes, how can they be shut off or on using our environment. So for example mm-hmm.

Some genes are super, you know, I think people kind of don’t think about it this way, but some, some genes are very impactful in our body. And so having a mutation in those genes, um, can 100% give a genetic diagnosis. So that would be like cystic fibrosis, down syndrome, pediatric conditions. Right. And so in those conditions, obviously, um, you know, we can’t necessarily use our environment to, to change that diagnosis, but the majority of our genes and changes in genes do fall into like medium to low penetrance.

We call it, um, lower [00:22:00] risk. And so that means, you know, they’re not 100% diagnostic, but they do, they can give increased risk. So when we understand that increased risk, then how do we handle that percentage and support the body in other ways? And that’s where epigenetics can come in so strongly. For things like, for example, the inflammation pathway, the genes and the inflammatory pathway are very much influenced by our environment.

If someone’s eating the standard American diet mm-hmm. Versus someone eating a very right anti-inflammatory diet, you know, it’ll shut those genes on versus keep them on. So even though someone might be ex predisposed to chronic inflammation, we can still, uh, support the, the epigenetics piece, the turning on and off those pathways.

Right, because again, coming back to this analogy of the body reading the instruction manual of that mutated gene, it’s not, it’s not necessarily going to read that manual. And so kind of what we’re saying here is there’s things you can do to make sure your body never goes and [00:23:00] references that manual.

It’s only referencing the good, healthy manuals. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So to that end though, we also, like if the body does go read those manuals, there’s a way to also turn it off. So there’s things we can do to make sure they don’t turn on. Exactly. But also even that isn’t, you know, a sentencing where, and if some of those genes did get turned on, what you’re saying is we also can do things to turn them back off.

And you know, sometimes if some, if a gene, for example, some genes will be red, um, because it’s just part of like innate biology, for example. Mm-hmm. An easy one is the melatonin gene, like everyone needs it to sleep, so. Mm-hmm. You know, but like you said, you know, blue light turn on or off, you know, that pathway.

Mm-hmm. But some genes like will, will kind of stay on or off, but we can influence many pathways that kind of work around that or kind of work with that [00:24:00] pathway as well. So that’s where like all the layers come in, but we can like really look at your body with genetic testing and all of those different, you know, all of those different areas and kind of, that’s what I, my job too.

A big part of my job with patients is to, um, talk with them about how much influence environment has on this versus that pathway, and then what can we do to support, you know, what we find. Yeah. The reason I’m feeling excited about this is because there’s so much, there’s so many amazing lifestyle changes and nutrition recommendations and modalities and treatments that we could all just kind of do willy-nilly.

Yeah. But there’s kind of two things I’m hearing in this, or I’m pulling from this. One, is there might be some things you’re doing that aren’t really that impactful for you because you don’t really need that, and so you’re wasting time, money, resources, engaging in those things, even though they are sort of objectively good, [00:25:00] they may not be that beneficial for you or vice versa.

It could be something that had the potential to be super beneficial for you, but because there’s maybe certain pathways or genes that are active, there’s like a missing element that’s not allowing you to get the optimal results out of certain treatments. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that’s where it’s really, you know, I think a lot, we all want functional genetics and I mean, we all want functional health where we are looking for the root cause.

And I feel like genetics can really help us do that. So a lot of people think, you know, it’s just about risk, but it’s not, it’s so much more than that because it’s, it’s really, a lot of times we can find root cause of things and also personalize things. So it, it takes it from, you know, just eating healthy or you can find so much on the internet as, you know, as in your specialty about cancer prevention.

But it’s like, where, where do we wanna put our focus for use specifically? Mm-hmm. And like you said, also time and money, [00:26:00] um, and less overwhelmed so you can live your life without trying every single trend and different, you know, prevention thing you hear. And so that’s what’s, you know, so powerful about it too.

I always, I always say the, the quote that. You know, genetics is not your life sentence. It should be your starting point because mm-hmm When you’re able to, to start at the most micro scale of your body and get to know it, then you’re able to really just dive into, you know, what would work best for you.

Yeah. And a point you made in your previous conversation was, for the most part, it’s one and done. You do this deep dive testing, you do your counseling, and you have that information that you can take to every other single doctor practitioner for the rest of your life. Yeah. And that’s huge. It kind of makes me go like, the sooner we can do this, the better.

’cause it’s just going to influence and at a whole different lens to every decision we’re making with our health. Exactly. Yeah, I, I do end up doing, um, you know, I [00:27:00] do do genetic, do do genetic testing for pediatrics, um, with the caveat that, you know, some genetic tests are saved for when a person turns 18 so they can have autonomy.

Mm-hmm. But for the most part, for like functional genomics specifically, I think it’s so helpful for parents because like you said, it is, um, you know, for example, if someone is predisposed to diabetes because they are really prone to high highs and low lows when it comes to blood sugar spikes, then parents know, okay, we really wanna focus for the, for the, this child on, like making sure they’re protein and fiber and healthy fats in their meal.

Not just like simple carb meals, but then their other child might be, you know, predisposed to something else and they’re way more. Likely to have stable blood sugar. And so it’s just really helpful to kind of also, yeah, the more, the earlier we can do it, the better. And, and I always see, you know, I think in my practice I feel so grateful that I am able to see, um, individuals who are, you know, younger adults, um, like thirties, [00:28:00] forties versus when I was at the hospital, it was mostly someone who already had disease of whatever was going to potentially express.

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But I do wanna talk about what this looks like for someone who doesn’t have a diagnosis. Um, and what this might look like. Someone who’s coming in, going, great, I hear you. I wanna be preventative. I’m pretty healthy. I don’t have any severe diagnoses, but I wanna optimize things. What that might look like and how that can be helpful.

And maybe some of the even examples of like really specific [00:31:00] changes you find or are counseling people to make. But then I also really wanna talk about, for someone who does have a cancer diagnosis or a chronic illness diagnosis, why this could be a game changing facet of their healing plan. Totally. I love this question.

And yeah, they are, they are separate. Um, okay. The way, yeah, the way that I, it feels like the implications could be a little bit different for each of them. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Let’s start with the, the like general prevention. Someone who doesn’t have any severe diagnoses. Maybe they’re having symptoms, maybe they’re like, you know, I can’t really lose weight that much, or, yeah, I do have some totally mild chronic pain or sleeps off, but there’s no actual severe diagnoses.

Totally. What does that look like? How do you find it being impactful for them? What are some of the common shifts? Yeah, definitely. Um, okay. So I always like to say too that there is not one genetic test that looks at everything. So that’s such a common misconception I hear is people are like. Test [00:32:00] me for everything.

And so we don’t have that. And the reason is because, you know, even with people have heard of whole exome sequencing or whole genome, but even with that, you know, that’s, there’s actually caveat to that is not everything’s reported. And so we actually have to, we have to, um, choose what tests would be beneficial for someone.

Um, mm-hmm. With that being said, I do think that the functional genomics panel that I order, I pretty much order on everyone because it’s always useful for anyone. And then the layer on top of that is I always in the first session will take a detailed family history, um, because family history is so helpful for us to not only choose the right test, but also interpret with context and help us understand inheritance patterns.

And so, mm-hmm. Let’s say I see something in the family history that, you know, could, there could be, uh, benefits from a specialized genetic test that isn’t covered in the functional genomics panel. So that could be like inherited, uh, early onset heart disease, early onset Alzheimer’s, cancers, um, you [00:33:00] know, uh, connective tissue disorders, preconception.

There’s a lot of like specialized tests we can add on pharmacogenomics. Mm-hmm. Um, but. Uh, you know, we kind of start with this baseline and then we can kind of see, and then, you know, of course if someone’s adopted, that’s okay. ’cause we can kind of cast a wide net and, you know, and, uh, run kind of proactive, like a larger proactive panel.

But the functional genomics panel is really where we get the most information for anyone because we’re not only looking at the cellular pathways. Like I mentioned, I mean, histamine’s a big one. I feel like with a, a lot of people, like helping them understand, I see a lot of autoimmune patients so we can understand uhhuh like CS versus, you know, like, uh, CS versus um, uh, MCAS versus, you know, this can help us clarify that.

But then we are also looking at, like I said, kind of earlier, glucose and insulin, but hormone balance as well. We’re looking at cholesterol and blood pressure. And then weight loss. Weight gain, genes, like you said. Um, we look at what activities work best for the body, [00:34:00] which I have to say clinically, it’s like always the most accurate.

Someone, you know, scores, power versus endurance. I’m like, oh, so now we understand your body and how to support training better. Sports. Sports, genetics is fascinating too. So we put that there. Oh my god. Oh yeah. Yeah. And we test for the celiac genes. We test for nutrient absorption. And so, you know, it’s such a, it’s a big panel and you know, memory and brain health, mood and behavior, even like dopamine, serotonin genes.

So we’re always getting, we always are getting something. And so, you know, I’ve had patients where, you know, we do figure out their celiac and they’re like, oh my god. This whole time, like I thought it was dairy, or we do figure out that they have, you know, a, a gene that, um, uh, makes it harder for their body to convert like T four to T three antibodies and thyroid.

And they had never checked their thyroid and now they, they check their thyroid and they’re like, oh my God, it is an issue that I need to work on. It would make me feel so much better. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we have people, I’ve had, uh, many patients, [00:35:00] you know, with, with understanding cholesterol at a deeper level.

Like what specifically may you not metabolize to, to raise your cholesterol? And, you know, there’s the Alzheimer’s gene. So there’s so many examples of where we kind of just look and then we always find something, even if it’s just like, what exercises may work better for your body? So I think it’s, it’s really helpful and, you know, can be helpful.

In a lot of different ways, even supplements, like, you know, it’s not like we, um, obviously I don’t endorse my own supplements or have my own products, but we’ll talk about different ones that might work better for someone when we go into methylation or omega threes. Like, do you have the ability to break this down in your diet or would you benefit from, you know, supplementation to raise your Omega-3 index?

Things like that. So always something to find. Well, completely, and this is where it’s just like a whole different level of optimization because I think most people in the holistic integrative world are, are taking supplements and are [00:36:00] trying to optimize wellness through some of these different things, but even to the point of understanding what type of movement and exercise your body responds best to.

Exactly. That’s huge. And, and because there might be someone out there who’s like, gosh, I’ve just, I’ve been running miles and miles a day for years. Um. Whatever, maybe I feel okay, but like I don’t feel great, but I know I’m supposed to be doing this. I know it’s supposed to be good for me. And then they realize, oh, maybe I’m not feeling so great doing this, even though it’s maybe objectively a good thing to do.

Yeah. Because it’s that not the right kind of thing for you. I think same thing with supplements, right? When it comes to methylation or absorption of different things, you might be taking a supplement, but because you have some kind of mutation, you’re barely absorbing it or maybe not even absorbing it at all.

And so just knowing that you have that information forever, it’s gonna allow you to make those decisions so that you’re getting the absolute most out of your, your [00:37:00] decisions, your supplements, your exercises, your financial decisions with all of that, et cetera. Yeah, totally. Um, and I, the one thing I’ll say lastly on this, and then I’ll switch to the other question, is, um.

Yeah, you just made me remember. This is such an interesting, uh, gene that I will find on, on people’s reports sometimes, and it’s actually a gene that relates to, um, melatonin and insulin. And oftentimes it actually also predicts chronotype. So people who have variants in this gene usually have a tougher time falling asleep early and they like to sleep in.

And we actually have found in research that people with this gene benefit from, they usually wake. These people also usually wake up feeling very full or nauseous. And we found in research that it’s actually beneficial for those people to wait and fast in the morning until they’re hungry to eat breakfast, which is such a, like, big example.

I hear like so many patients when I talk to ’em about this, they go, oh my God, I finally feel un understood [00:38:00] because, um, oftentimes the advice is to eat protein as soon as you wake up. But for these people, it actually helps their insulin and glucose to, to wait a bit until they’re, they’re hungry in the morning.

So I feel like this is so, it’s so freeing sometimes for patients, you know, that, that they’re like, oh no wonder. Like it’s so, it feels so much better in my body to do that. And I was trying so hard to, you know, follow the standard advice and it wasn’t working so completely. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s just validating.

Even though to some extent we are attuned to our bodies. I think it can be hard, especially when there’s a lot of social rhetoric or the people in your circles who are doing a thing and noticing all these benefits and then you’re doing it and you’re not noticing that maybe you’re even feeling worse.

It still can be really hard to be able to make that decision and go, this isn’t for me. Totally. And not knowing if this isn’t for me, what is for me? And that’s why I think this can be so impactful. Real quick before we move on, um, do you also, in maybe that first consult with [00:39:00] them take, are you interested in any symptoms they might be experiencing?

Any injuries and things like that? Is that relevant at all? 100%. Yeah. So we, we do personal history and depth too. Um, which obviously, you know, I think. That gives us context into what’s going on potentially in the body right now. So I love genetics ’cause it helps us see in the future, but also what could be going on now and so mm-hmm.

With symptoms. And also I do like to, you know, assess if people have done, you know, recent blood tests, we can see okay, maybe something is already expressing or what they’re doing, maybe a certain habit is actually helping that gene shut down. So that’s really helpful for us to, to put into context when we’re creating recommendations and understanding the way the person’s body is working.

And I think there’s so many reasons, you know, outside of this, that. I don’t love people just using like AI to assess reports, [00:40:00] but Uhhuh, that’s a big one too, is just because like it’s putting into context like what, what actually makes sense for the person, you know, and what’s going on right now. Um, because obviously you can do like a million things, but it’s like, okay, well let’s narrow it down again, like you were saying.

So it helps us, it, it helps us understand that better. Yeah. Well, and since we’re here on that topic of ai, how is what you are doing through your practice different from something like 23 and Me or some of the other, like really, really popular kind of at home solo tests? Yeah, so there are so many direct to consumer genetic tests now, and it’s blown up so much because genetic testing, you know, obviously we’ve studied, as I’m sure you know, with, with your PhD, we always study kind of the history of the profession, so Totally.

You know, so genetic testing used to be only reserved for health, very reserved for diagnostic testing, and was, uh, you know, more focused on prenatal and then BRCA genes came up and then, um, [00:41:00] throughout. Our research, we, you know, we were able to sequence the whole genome and that allowed, uh, kind of these direct to consumer tests to come about because it became cheaper.

And so, mm-hmm. There’s plus and minuses to that. But, um, I always say like, really, really be careful with direct to consumer tests. ’cause um, there’s, there’s lots of reasons. Like one is some genes actually are at high risk of having false positives and false negatives. So, you know, can we really like, trust the data we always use clinically, you know, like actionable and like appropriate labs.

Um, but then the second piece is, um. Genetic tests, pick what genes they think is most important to test for you. Mm-hmm. And so you’re, when you’re not meeting, like when, when we’re looking at it, you know, we do contract with different labs. We don’t get anything out of using any labs. We just find the ones we trust, but we always assess, okay, what genes do we wanna make sure are on this panel?

When you order your own genetic test, you’re [00:42:00] at the, uh, you know, you’re at the mercy of lab. The lab picking for you lab. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And, and so sometimes like 23 and me raw data, for example, doesn’t always have all of the clinically. Uh, appropriate and, and well validated genes that we need to test for you.

Mm-hmm. So sometimes people are like plugging it in and, and we’re like, well actually, you know, some of these don’t even apply to you. Or, you know, you know, a lot of times it’s like, we don’t wanna just look at one single gene, we wanna look at pathways. Uh, like M-T-H-F-R for example, has kind of come up in that situation.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, that’s a big, that’s a big reason. And then another big reason besides the human interpretation being so important to put everything into. To not only context, but help you understand how this applies to, you know, potentially future family or your children or your parents. Um, but also, um, privacy concerns.

Right? So, you know, that’s a big one too, is that yeah, when we’re looking at health data and direct to cons, it’s not just [00:43:00] 23 and me, like direct to consumer companies, a lot of them do, you know, can sell data to outside companies and yeah, we just wanna be careful of this with, especially with like high risk genes because, you know, we do have protections against health insurance or employers from using this information, but.

Sometimes, um, life insurance, long-term care and disability insurance has partial protection. And so just much more, it’s just very important to treat this as a medical test because it is, and go through, you know, like a HIPAA compliant medical practice with someone who knows, you know, genetics rather than trying to figure out, figure it all out on your own.

Yeah. I, I, I see that completely. Yeah. Um, even just in how much you’re saying, how much interpretation goes into it, how much intention and decision making goes into which genes you’re testing, all of that sounds like something you want a designated, you know, expert in this field walking you through, so.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:44:00] Okay. So moving on to how, what you’re doing in genetic testing can be so impactful when someone is, is currently in the thick of a diagnosis. Yeah. Um, I’d, I’d love to hear about that. Maybe even some of the experiences you’ve had of. So and so came in with cancer, and once we did genetic testing, here’s some things we found out, and here’s how that may have changed their treatment protocols or their supplement protocols, et cetera.

Totally. Yeah. So I think there is a big component too, that I don’t want to miss is that, you know, when we are thinking of the medical side, more kind of con conventional, traditional care in cancer, um, you know, realistically a lot of people do end up having to, you know, explore things like chemotherapy or radiation for.

And so I always tell patients I think this is something that’s so unknown and so underutilized is that, um, actually a lot of times when we’re doing genetic testing, there are certain [00:45:00] mutations that help us understand and dictate which treatment could be better for you and potentially avoid chemotherapy.

’cause there are things that exist now, like PARP inhibitors or, you know, other types of, uh, treatment outside of chemotherapy that may actually work better for your body. And this is actually really helpful for, you know, your, you know, oncologist for example, because. Too often people do, you know, it’s kind of trial and error, like on a lot of medi medications.

A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean a hundred percent. It’s, it’s frustrating. Yeah. And oncologists are trained in really three, maybe four forms of treatment, right? Yeah. Chemo, radiation, surgery, maybe some immunotherapy. That’s it. And because of liability and insurance, they kind of almost always have to recommend Yeah.

Some combination of those without, without, you know, even if they’re like, they’re not doing that testing to see, well, does chemo actually resonate with my body? Is my body gonna respond well or poorly to that? That’s [00:46:00] not a part of that program for most people. The vast, vast majority. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Which I feel like was disheartening for me to learn For sure. And so I know, I think, you know, if like we could shout it from the rooftops that. You know, not always, but a lot of times genetic testing can help avoid that trial and error situation. Um, you know, even just to help us understand what to potentially expect, you know, with response, it’s so, you know, could be so helpful for someone.

Um, and so, you know, like literally life changing. And so that’s a huge piece of, you know, a huge piece of it. And then the layers on top of that is really where kind of what we were talking about comes into play. So it’s like where, you know, when, when someone is going through treatment or, um, you know, through battling the cancer, where can we really target for that person and optimize their specific pathways, you know, because it’s, it’s not always the same.

It’s not blanketed. And so [00:47:00] that’s where, you know, people, I think. Patients in that, in that situation, it can be very overwhelming. Like I totally, you know, have seen that from, as a family member. Um, and so just really being able to, to, uh, zoom in and focus instead of just trying everything, um, in that Yeah.

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Click the link below to learn more and receive 20% off your first order. Yeah. To that end, I, something I work with my patients on all the time is, it’s really important to have peace in the decisions you’re making. Yeah. With your treatment plan. And oftentimes we have a little more time than we think.

Sometimes there really is urgency and we kind of have to move forward with something. But whenever it’s possible, I always try to encourage patients to be like, Hey, it’s. If you have peace with that surgery before you go into it, your body’s gonna respond to it completely differently. To that end, so many of my patients I think, have very clear intuition about often what is [00:50:00] right or wrong for them.

But it can be really hard to go to your conventional oncologist and be like, look, I just have a bad feeling about this chemo. It doesn’t feel like it’s right for me. I they get poo-pooed all the time. I hear this. Versus if you’re able to maybe even bring them some hard data of, Hey, I’ve done this genetic testing here is quantitative, tangible proof that my body is gonna respond really poorly to this.

Let’s work up a different plan. Totally. Yeah. I think that’s such a good point because I do feel like. Um, you know, in when the diagno, you know, when a diagnosis happens, I feel like patients oftentimes just get thrown into kind of this standardized, you see this person and you see that person and you’re referred here and there, and you’re kind of just following what anyone tells you to do.

And I think it is so important, like you said, and you know, this, you know, better than anyone is for, you know, people to really kind of, um, you know, be a pa, be an advocate for themselves and understand like what’s [00:51:00] actually going on, what’s being recommended. Does it feel good to them and their options?

Because, you know, there are options. And so, you know, right. Like you said, you know, and then again, I think that the genetics piece can be so helpful, like you were saying, to, to come with the data, um, when requesting it, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think it’s to some extent a reiteration of what we were saying, even just with lifestyle and prevention.

When you understand. How your body metabolizes nutrients, how your, you know, inflammation pathways work, all of that can impact your supplementation, your protocols. But what you talked, I think you mentioned this really briefly at the beginning, it can also help us understand potential root cause contributors to maybe why that cancer was able to thrive and grow in the body.

And can you speak to that a little bit more? Totally, yeah. So, you know, I think so many layers to it, but like, you know, if, if, if we understand, you know, the first, I think [00:52:00] understanding the layer of, of the protective genes being really important to, you know, clarify, but then a lot of times people will, uh, not have a mutation in those genes.

So when I’m referring to those, those are like. You know, kind of more higher to mid, uh, risk protective genes. But a lot of times people will come with ca you know, I have patients who have had cancer diagnosed in their thirties, which is really, you know, relatively young for cancer diagnosis. And so, but then they’ll test negative for those genes.

So it’s like, okay, well. You know what, and then we’ll look at their other pathways and you know, maybe their oxidative stress, their detox and their inflammation pathway is struggling. You know, and you know, we can look at other genes too, like kind of a, you know, a whole, uh, like it’s called polygenic risk scoring, but a whole like other host of genes.

And then we can see, okay, well maybe it was actually, you know, things that you were exposed to you, you know, at the time. No one’s fault of course, but like [00:53:00] your body wasn’t able to remove them like others might have been able to and mm-hmm. You know, so I think really understanding, okay, so knowing this information we can now, you know, utilize that to help support our environment and what we’re, uh, intaking to not only prevent recurrence, but also support your body, you know, during that time.

Yeah. Maybe as an example, like you could have two patients come in. Sometimes the way I simple simplify cancer, looking at root cause to cancer. What’s all the toxic stuff we need less of? Yeah. And basically that’s three categories in my mind. The pollutant, the pollutants, the pathogens, and then in my field, the past experiences that are unresolved.

I love that. The three piece. Yeah. That’s amazing. So what’s all the toxic stuff that we need less of that we need to clear out, and then what’s all the nourishing stuff we need more of? Yeah. To that end, you could have two cancer patients. They both have a very heavy toxic [00:54:00] burden, but Joe over here, he has a heavy toxic burden, but actually his detox pathways are all optimal.

It’s just he had a really severe exposure and so maybe, and then let’s say Jeff over here has the same toxic burden, but he also has really maybe mutated detox pathways, maybe like their initial treatment to detox. All of that out will be somewhat similar, although I do still think it would be different, but why I think this is important, bigger picture and long term is.

Joe who doesn’t have any mutated detox pathways, once he clears out whatever it was from that exposure, he might be good to go. Of course, we wanna do general wellness and detoxing, but he might not have to be so stringent or just kind of intentional about that going forward. But Jeff, who has these mutated pathways, might go, I need to not only clear out what exists, but I also need to have a really clear plan to keep this on track long term.

Totally. Yeah. [00:55:00] That’s such a good example. And yeah, like you said, you know, it’s, it’s fascinating how detailed we can get to for. You know, is it phase one versus phase two? Like some people have um, a hyperactive phase one detoxification pathway, so their intermediates are getting stuck and, and they’re not getting, you know, so we have to upregulate phase two.

So it’s like, even, like you said, those differences. And then the layer on, on top of that too is like, we can get so specific and I think exactly like you said, it’s, it’s so helpful. And then, you know, even things like people will explore, you know, sauna or um, uh, you know, just like heavy exercise for example.

Like these things can be great for some people and I love them personally ’cause I think sauna’s so beneficial. And let’s say someone has, I had a patient who was doing 45 minutes of sauna a day. ’cause they heard on, you know, I think it was, you know, a well-known podcast that they had to do 45 minutes for the benefit.

But then we looked at their oxidative stress and their histamine and their genes in oxidative stress and [00:56:00] histamine just predisposed them to having, you know, high oxidative stress post exercise and in extreme temperatures as well as a histamine response. So they were mm-hmm. They were doing these long, you know, sauna sessions when they were like complaining about migraines and headaches.

And then we were explaining, you know, actually for you, maybe doing like 15 minutes is a lot more beneficial. So yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting when we’re able to, you know, go, go down each, each gene and pathway for the person. Yeah. And to that end, just, there’s the longevity piece. But when you are in the thick of a treatment, especially when it’s something like cancer, but also I work, you know, I’ve had patients who are experiencing MS and fibromyalgia and.

Any number of different autoimmune diseases, you, you’re spending money, you’re spending time. You want that to be really, really optimized and detoxing is a huge part of that. So if you’re, if you’re a clinician or your practitioner or your doctors are putting you on detox [00:57:00] protocols that are too much for your body or your body can’t detox that quickly, so we need to bring in certain optimizers or we need to go, like we have to do a slower detox for it to actually be impactful and sustainable.

All of that’s gonna factor in. Totally. Yeah. 100%. Because I’ve had, I’ve had patients who, you know, doctors with the best of best intentions are throwing them on these super aggressive protocols and then they get way sicker. Yeah, I know. That’s, it’s so true. Yeah. I think it’s, and that’s, I think what’s so fascinating too, is.

For people to really, you know, understand their, their genetics first can help us avoid like, you know, kind of that experience sometimes. But, you know, it’s, it’s fascinating too to understand. I mean, we even have, like, each gene is in charge of detoxifying certain things too, so we can see, you know, okay, like what could be, you know, building up [00:58:00] or in your environment that’s like really impacting you specifically there, you know, and there’s, yeah, there’s so many with, there’s so many like details within that.

But like, for example, like the CYP genes is in phase one versus phase two is like, you know, potentially the GST genes with glutathione conjugation, or, you know, methylation. And so it’s like you said, it’s the protocols, but then also the layer of like, well, maybe the person needs. You know, glutathione support or maybe someone needs methylation support versus, you know, just putting them on all of the different types.

Yeah, to an extent. Of course I think people can benefit, you know, from certain, certain things like everyone. Mm-hmm. But yeah, that’s where we can get that, you know, understanding of why that person might be reacting that way. Yeah. Okay. Last couple little questions I do wanna ask ’cause I am so interested in patterns when we can pull them.

Is there any kind of pattern you’re seeing with the cancer patients you’re testing? Like Yeah, a huge majority of the cancer patients I test have [00:59:00] mutations in inflammation genes or mutations in methylation genes. Is there any kind of pattern you’re seeing? Yeah, that’s a good question. Definitely I would say cellular pathways being important.

Um. You know, but I also don’t want to, you know, kind of skip on like the hormone pathways in genetics, which is fascinating, especially for hormonal driven cancers. So we have certain genes that help detoxify estrogen metabolites, and sometimes people have variants in that where estrogen builds, or sometimes we have variants in, you know, the, the gene that converts testosterone to estrogen, you know, and so they have higher testosterone.

And so like understanding that and then combining that with hormonal tests, you know, as you know, um, most like providers, um, can help with, which is like really helpful to see. But I would say that inflammation, oxidative stress and detoxification. Honestly, and methylation all being important. [01:00:00] Um, but it’s just, again, that’s where it kind of becomes like so personalized to the person.

Mm-hmm. Because if someone is prone to low grade chronic inflammation, that could create an environment to where maybe their detox pathways aren’t functioning as properly, but the root cause there is chronic inflammation versus someone else might have low inflammation, but they’re, they’re, you know, getting stuck in phase one or phase two or, you know, um, uh, oxidative stress is, you know, kind of its own thing where if you have reactive oxidative species building up, that can create inflammation, but it’s not inflammation being the root.

So that’s where we can kind of, you know, assess for the, the person. But I would say when I do have cancer patients, usually, you know, if they’ve experienced, um, cancer, there is some, some flag in at least one cellular pathway. Um, and so it’s figuring out, you know, which one, um, can we help optimize for that person?

Yeah. And to that end, what I think I’ll just throw in there is [01:01:00] I’ve never, ever, ever seen a, a cancer patient who had just one root cause. I think sometimes that word can even be a little misleading that Yeah. What’s the one thing that caused this? I often, I’m, I’m trying to use the word contributor, more like what are the contributor, what are the root contributors to this?

Yeah. Because I have never seen someone come in who had just one thing. I agree. And I think that’s actually encouraging, where it’s like, just because you have a mutation doesn’t mean you’re gonna get cancer. We’ve never seen cancer patients who didn’t have parasites, but that’s also not a, just because you have parasites, you’re gonna get cancer.

It’s, mm-hmm. They had parasites and maybe mold exposure and this detox mutation and this unresolved trauma and all of that over time. Took their body to its peak capacity mm-hmm. So that it could no longer kind of keep that cancer at bay. Yeah, I agree. And that’s even the same with genetics too, is that’s why I think it’s, you know, it’s, it’s [01:02:00] definitely not black and white and there’s so many different, that’s why I love, you know, again, like putting in, in this.

This information in context because, um, like you said, with genetic, if we’re just thinking about the genetics leg, and again, there’s so many other pieces, like you were saying, even just within the genetics part, it’s, it’s usually not just one gene and one pathway even because mm-hmm. Maybe someone has, um, a mutation in, you know, that cancer protective gene, but then, you know, they might have inflammation, but then also they might be prone to blood glucose, you know, issues like spikes and drops, which again, we know is hard on the body.

And then also they might have, you know, cholesterol like, so it all, you know, it’s like there’s so many facets that we definitely, you know, want, wanna like, focus, but also just taking into account like our body works in systems and works together, you know? Mm-hmm. And so things, you know, impact our body in so many different ways.

Yeah, [01:03:00] completely. And to that end, it’s not about living then in fear and hypervigilance and perfection of, well, I have this mutation, so I, you know, have to take this specific vitamin every single day or else. Exactly. Yeah. It’s not that either. It’s something develops, it’s not because you missed your supplement for a day or even probably a week or even probably a month.

Exactly. Illness and disease are developing because over usually many, many months and years. Problems have been allowed to persist. So it’s not to bring in this like hypervigilance and rigidity. Exactly. There’s still that room to live life and be fluid and Yeah. I always say that too, because I think that can be difficult for some people to not hyper fixate on, you know, on things, um, you know, on their health when they’re trying to be preventative or if they’ve had cancer.

Mm-hmm. You know, not wanting recurrence. And I always say, like you said. You are the expert on this too. Um, that life is [01:04:00] supposed to be lived, you know, and we are, we, you know, joy is so important. Joy in itself is cancer protective, and stress in itself is, you know, uh, increasing risk. And so it’s like, I always say like, we really don’t want the person to leave feeling like they have more stress in their life.

It’s, it’s more about, you know, feeling empowered on taking the personalized steps. And then also, you know, being able to, to have that, you know, awareness and, and, uh. You know, to live life like still joyfully and not hyper fixate like you were saying. I love it. If you have time, can I ask you really quickly to just detail, so what does it look like if someone’s really excited to work with you?

What does that process potentially look like from start to finish? Yeah, so, um, we always, like I mentioned, we wanna meet with you for an initial session and I think. You know, this is, it’s so helpful for all the reasons I mentioned and so we don’t wanna skip this. I know people sometimes are like, can I just do the test?

And I’m like, [01:05:00] no. ’cause we have to actually assess what test to do first too. Mm-hmm. You know, so, um, initial session, um, again, I’m fully telehealth, so we do everything virtually. Um, we do personal family history review and then I always go through genetics education with people too on that so they feel like they actually know what we’re doing, I think.

Mm-hmm. Genetics is ordered a lot of times in the conventional space and no one even knows like what it is. And so a hundred percent, yeah. Yeah. So going over that and then we coordinate the test to be shipped to your house. So, um, people are often surprised to hear that. We’ve now are able to sequence DNA accurately using saliva or cheek swab sample.

So only in specialized cases do we need a blood sample. Um, and so people can kind of complete that on their own, ship that out. When we get results in, um, we spend time interpreting that and creating a, you know, a personalized protocol. And then we’ll review that with you in one or two sessions, depending on how much, you know, we have to review.

Um, and then we always give you that report, that personalized [01:06:00] protocol, and then, you know, we’re available for, for check-in and support after that. And then the last thing I’ll say too is that. We are, you know, the genetics piece. And we always love working with providers and people as a team because mm-hmm.

I think so often everyone is siloed and then the patient Yeah. You know, has to kind of play this game of telephone and they’re trying to explain all the results to their provider. And so we always say like, we would love to work with whoever pri provider’s working with you, or multiple providers, your care team so that we’re all on the same page and so we can create documentation for them specifically, or, you know, um, I’m, you know, always happy to, to call providers and, and work with them too.

Yeah. That’s so amazing. I think that’s such a, like a special, special piece of it. ’cause I completely see most, especially in the integrative world with cancer care. Most of them have, I mean anywhere from like probably six plus different doctors or practitioners on their team doing all these different things.

So 100%. [01:07:00] Yeah, it’s a lot. Yes. Yeah. I’ll make sure it’s all in the show notes, but can you share your Instagram, your website, where people can find you and get in contact? Yes. Okay. So our website is www.goldengeneticshealth.com. Our Instagram is easy. Same thing at Golden Genetics Health. And then you can email me directly at natalie@goldengeneticshealth.com.

Um, and please feel free to reach out. I’m always happy to chat through things with patients. I love it. Natalie, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.